Why Your ‘Lo-Fi’ Product Pitch Could Be the Next Viral Ad (40M Views Prove It) with Haven Tents

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[00:00:00] CJ: You put out your guys pitch on the floor of a trade show and that ad just goes viral and gets a million views and you were like, are you kidding?

[00:00:08] Derek Tillotson: that is up to 40 million views that video. Me pitching the haven 10 in minute on the floor of a trade show

[00:00:15]
[00:00:21] Today on the podcast we have Derek Tillson. He is the founder and CEO of Haven Tents. And Derek has an incredible story that we talk about from launching on Kickstarter to growing the brand to how he creates. Content. Derek is a content machine. We discuss how you could take what Derek is doing and apply it to your own business.

[00:00:43] The guy is an absolute animal having multiple videos that have reached over a million views. One in particular that has. 40 million views. He’s just been able to bottle lightning in the sense of creating viral content. And I think listening to how [00:01:00] he goes about that and how he just cranks out content is something that a lot of brands could take away.

[00:01:05] And so I’m excited for you to hear Derek’s story . We also get into expanding into retail and how that helps expand a brand. So really exciting episode. Really excited to bring it to you. Hope you enjoy.

[00:01:18] CJ: derek, welcome to the pod, my friend.

[00:01:22] Derek Tillotson: Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here. And Zoe, always a pleasure. Thank you.

[00:01:27] CJ: Yeah, we’ve got Zoe co hosting today. And, uh, Derek, if you’re not familiar, um, the whole vision for the podcast is we’re on this kind of never ending pursuit to, to answer the question. Like, how does a brand. Go from a couple million bucks in revenue a year to a hundred million dollars in revenue a year.

[00:01:47] Cause that’s what our agency does. Or, you know, thinks we’re pretty good at helping brands along that path, but there’s so many ways to do it and so many different challenges all along the way and different [00:02:00] milestones and all that. So we’re just, you know, this is what we live and breathe. So we’re kind of just.

[00:02:04] Looking for stories around that. And you got a amazing story. Uh, I mean, for those listening, we know your story cause we all work together already, um, but maybe you can just, I’d love to hear the elevator pitch from, from you on Haven.

[00:02:19] Derek Tillotson: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, so we, we solved a problem, which is being comfortable outside. I was laying in a regular hammock and thought this would be so much better if I was flat. How would I do that? even though I did not have a background in product design or really hammocks or anything in the, I was a consumer and very passionate about the outdoors. So I’ve been a customer forever, but, uh, kind of penciled out my ideas on how I could create a flat hammock. And I decided to take it to at least to a prototype. And the first prototype was actually really good, than our second and our third. And we kind of, you know, learned how difficult it is to take something that’s an idea into an actual physical product.

[00:02:59] But we launched on [00:03:00] Kickstarter in 2019, shipped our first tense in 2020. So we’ve been in the hammock business now for about five and a half years. And it’s been awesome. It’s been so fun. continued to expand and grow and having great conversations and great partnerships and we’ve stayed true to that vision of sleep and comfort and we’re helping people be comfortable outside.

[00:03:21] Zoë : Derek, what I would absolutely love to know from what you just said is, you said you set out to solve this problem. you always have the vision that you wanted it to be a DTC brand and you wanted it to grow and scale? Or really early on, were you just like, this is a really cool product, I’m solving a problem, I just want to see where it goes?

[00:03:39] Like, did you always have that vision?

[00:03:42] Derek Tillotson: Yeah. So, uh, I didn’t know what the, what the word DTC meant. Like, I wouldn’t have been able to tell you what that meant I started this business and I, my background was in sales and marketing, but it was always in the direct sales space. So. Storytelling, selling individual products. And I was very knowledgeable about my [00:04:00] area direct sales, but I did not have any experience with B2B, D2C, or any of those acronyms or anything.

[00:04:07] So, uh, honestly, I knew if I made a good, something that I would want, then other people might want it too. And we validated that through Kickstarter. And I was so nervous about somebody else making, stealing our idea and doing it first. That when I launched our Kickstarter, most other than my like really tight circle of friends and family, nobody even knew that I was working on something. live on my Facebook and said, hey guys, I have a hammock and they, everybody was like, what? You know, so the, the curiosity is what brought him to the, to the Kickstarter initially. But, uh, yeah, so I would say I, I was so un, unknowledgeable that I didn’t really have much of a game plan. I just knew if I made something cool, people would probably want it.

[00:04:53] CJ: Did the stuff that you were doing before Haven, like did those, how did those skills, can you put a finer point on that? How do those [00:05:00] skills translate over? Have they helped you at all? Or is it just like you’re, it’s like a college degree that you got and you don’t use anymore?

[00:05:06] Derek Tillotson: No, yeah, for sure. So I would say absolutely. It definitely helped. And so before getting involved in music, like I said, I was in the direct sales space with company called new skin, right? Basically built a sales team and an organization. We told stories. We told stories about the opportunity about the products. so I got, I would say I became an above average storyteller, uh, meaning that I could like kind of sell something, right? I could, I could tell, I could get an idea across and hopefully it would be compelling and compel action. And whoever was listening to the tale. And so I became a storyteller and then my wife and I, we actually took a year off.

[00:05:45] My business was kind of self sustaining over there. And so we took a year off to travel. And while I was traveling, cause I’m a busy body. I decided to make content. Or the hotels and activity companies, kind of like a little bit of a social media family. And so [00:06:00] five take flight went to 38 countries in the course of a year. And I made little advertisements for hotels and travel companies. we didn’t make money doing it, but we got a bunch of free stuff, which was fun. But I was basically in a content mode for a year. And that’s when I laid in a hammock and thought, this would be better if I was flat. so I would say that’s of the, the springboards to our success.

[00:06:27] It’s something that’s made it very, you know, I wouldn’t say easy, but the marketing side and the storytelling side is the fact that I’m it’s comfortable making content and I feel like I’ve had a lot of practice in telling a story and those would have come from a creep from my background for sure.

[00:06:43] CJ: And that’s the thing that like I, we always talk about, right? Like your unfair advantage specifically you, but just Haven tense is the ability to just crank out content and storytelling when you, when you sit down to think about creating a video, what’s your process? Do you [00:07:00] have, do you like write out the full script or do you just kind of wing it?

[00:07:03] Any, any pro tips for that?

[00:07:06] Derek Tillotson: Yeah. So I consume more content than I should doing the scroll thing and I convinced myself that it’s, it’s research, but every once in a while you do get ideas from that as far as, Oh, what are other brands doing? And I, I have a list. Of content ideas that I’ve enjoyed from other companies, you know, one time, well, there was this video of this guy who’s in a hammock and he’s just spinning around in it, you know, and it’s pretty funny, but at the same time, it’s like, not what people want from a hammock is to be all like, spinny, spinny. And so I thought, okay, what if I took that? And then I showed how stable our hammock was. And so the caption was getting into a hammock. And I, I asked the creator who made that video, Hey, can I, I use this in our own video? And he said, I could. So, you know, how to get in the hammock. Spinny, spinny, spinny versus just like. Getting in a hammock very normal and natural and making it look really [00:08:00] easy. and so that was one piece of content that just came to my mind after seeing other things that people were doing. you know, really, I look for opportunities to tell the story on a podcast or something like that. And then I just, I mesh it with a setup video. And that’s one thing that I’ve done pretty consistently that’s done well. Also, when we are pitching the hammock, we record stuff. And so some of the day to day things that we do in our business, which is, and I’m sure many of you that own e commerce businesses, you’re talking about your products, like, you know, record that pitch really natural pitch and then put it up on social media.

[00:08:36] That’s great content. would say that I am the fact that I am consistently mediocre in my content makes it easier for me because like the bar has been lowered and if the bar is so stinking high. It’s really hard to justify posting anything that looks at all haphazard more organic or spontaneous or fun. And so having a lower quality bar [00:09:00] is nice because I can put stuff out there I find that that does well. You know, um, we get every once in a while we get some content from a creator who’s Relief Pollack and it looks like it’s a studio or it looks professionally done cinematic and It just doesn’t do as well.

[00:09:18] CJ: Yeah, that one kills us because we’re like, you know, obviously our team is all creatives and wants to make everything look incredible and like, but then yeah, you put out a, you put out your guys pitch on the floor of a trade show and that ad just literally goes viral and well, maybe not literally, but goes viral and gets a million views and you were like, are you kidding?

[00:09:40] Derek Tillotson: that is up to 40 million views that video. I me pitching the haven 10 in In minute Uh on the floor of a trade show

[00:09:50] CJ: It’s become my like number one go to like pro tip of you want to get started with just like getting, you know, creating UGC style, just go record your pitch. [00:10:00] It’s you think it’s going to be boring. It’s not like people, people want to be connected with a cool product. They want to discover cool stuff. Like.

[00:10:09] Zoë : You’re obviously a content creating machine, the fact that the speed at which you put content out and how quickly you just create everything, when was the decision for you to start putting sort of paid media behind? your content, um, or going down that route just from like early scale up to where you are now.

[00:10:26] Um, so going away from organic and more to the paid media side, what was that

[00:10:30] Derek Tillotson: Right. So

[00:10:32] knew nothing about paid media. And then during our first Kickstarter campaign, a friend of mine who runs kind of, I wouldn’t call it a media agency, but he’s, he’s, you know, put some money behind ads before he offered to help me put some money behind advertising that first Kickstarter campaign.

[00:10:49] And I, that was really my first, you know, look at it. then I kind of relied on, uh, me creating content and then putting [00:11:00] a bit of spend behind it. But it was always me. I was always the one doing that, you know, creative stuff. And then a year and a half ago, I had a conversation with, with CJ and I said, our brand is doing great. We’re doing well. We’re reaching people with this, with this kind of organic haphazard strategy. I said, but if our product isn’t a, our content. Is a B and hard, like marketing strategy is a C, you know, so that’s like, so what if we elevated our content strategy, right? Our storytelling strategy. What if we had our marketing automation on point?

[00:11:37] What if we did all of these things better? And that was my partnership with vulgar. And I think it’s done really well. I mean, we had 80 percent year over year growth last year, and you know, you. You can’t be too upset about that when the rest of the outdoor industry is down. And so we’re stoked on it.

[00:11:53] CJ: I’ll be sure to clip that and post that on LinkedIn. Thanks, Derek. Uh,

[00:11:59] Derek Tillotson: it was great. Like [00:12:00] it absolutely worked, you know, and my fear was that we would kind of up to spend, we would do everything

[00:12:06] CJ: yeah,

[00:12:07] Derek Tillotson: you know, you would miss the mark, we would miss the mark or whatever, but our story is resonating better.

[00:12:13] CJ: I think too, in my mind there, there is a tension between like, let’s call it lo fi content, the stuff that you can do and just ship and you don’t, but yeah, lo fi content and then like the polish stuff, I really do believe that there’s this, you need. A balance to get to another level because like at a certain point of just scale when you’re when you’re hitting people that are way colder audiences that don’t know you, like, why do people buy from brands?

[00:12:40] They buy from the brands that they know, like in trust. And I think a lot of trust can come with like the polish that comes with like the brand identity, the way things are designed, the way things look. And at the same time, like you can see me. You know, the, the sales pitch lo fi type ad of just you pitching the product on the floor.

[00:12:59] Great. Oh, [00:13:00] now I’m interested. And then maybe over time, I’m getting served these ads that are like really slick, really polished. Oh, this, this brand is legit. Like these guys are legit. This is, look at this. I mean, and then the combination of those things seems to be really effective. At least that’s where we found a lot of success with you guys, but with other brands too, of don’t be afraid to turn on a video camera and just start recording and cut it up.

[00:13:22] Or if you. The other thing that, you know, if you’re not a, a, you, a Derek, the thing that we tell brands is like, Hey, um, you know, this is where you lean into influencers, you know, and you don’t there, cause they can create the content and it’s, and it can be lo fi and it doesn’t have to be all that polished and you don’t have to worry about it.

[00:13:39] It’s not you, it’s them.

[00:13:41] Derek Tillotson: Right,

[00:13:42] CJ: I think building on, uh, Zoe, on your point, Derek, when you think back to like, can you put the, the business into like milestones? Are there things that stick out? For you of like, Oh, this is when we became a real business and this is where, and this was another [00:14:00] milestone. Like, Hey, we started paid ads of like, what were the key highlights where you felt that like, okay, this is becoming more and more legit.

[00:14:08] Derek Tillotson: I’ll tell you when that first shipping container and it wasn’t even a full container. It was like, maybe 3 pallets showed up at my office. I thought, man, I’m never going to be able to sell these. We have infinite events. We have so many. uh, you know, within two months they were gone and all of a sudden it’s COVID and you’re trying to scramble to get more stuff. so it’s been fun to watch the business evolve like that. And I would say, uh, one little eye opener moment, I went to hang con, which is the, the hammock. It’s not a convention center. It’s a, it’s a campground and it is a blast. It’s in Florida. And a bunch of people camping in the woods passionate about hammocks and there’s vendors there and I go there my first year and I set up and [00:15:00] we’re a brand new company and we had like a couple customers that showed up that had our stuff you know, organically.

[00:15:06] And I was stoked on that. But then I was talking to somebody else who had been in the hammock industry for a long time. And he said, good for you guys. There has not been a hammock company that has started and stuck around, uh, really in the last 10, 15 years, because all of the companies that started started back in the early days, like Eagles Nest Outfitters and all, you know, all these guys, they, they started a long time ago.

[00:15:33] There hasn’t been any new hammock companies and. Like I, it kind of clicked that, man, this is a small poem, you know, like if I’m going to be at the best hammock company I can be, if I can capture 10 percent market share of this circle. It’s not going to be a very big circle. going to be fun. It’s going to be great, you know, but so of the first realizations was how do I expand that [00:16:00] circle? And even though, yes, we are a hammock company. How can we, like, if you look at the camping industry, it’s this big circle. It’s like a pinprick, which is how many of those people, like this is camping and this is hammock camping. You know, it’s a much smaller target. And so how do we move from being a hammock company to a camping company?

[00:16:21] And then how do we become a sleep company? And so I’d say that when you talk about like scalability and when we felt like, I think that mental shift we don’t sell hammocks, we don’t sell tents, we sell sleep. that is such a larger target and within the evolution, we’ve continued to evolve our product around that.

[00:16:41] And so I’d say that that was a bit of an eye opener. do we still, do we feel like a real company? I don’t necessarily know because a week I get to go out there and do what I call a content day, which is me in the woods making, taking pictures of hammocks. So it doesn’t really feel like a job because it’s stuff I would like to do anyway. [00:17:00] And so I don’t know, I would say that that pivotal moment of deciding not to be a hammock company was pretty important for this damn company.

[00:17:08] CJ: Let’s go back to that. I just get tactical too. Cause I love the content day. Cause this is like a problem that brand every brand has. Like how do we get more content? And you know, a lot of them are. Afraid to go shoot it themselves or they don’t have a team or whatever. So what does that back to, I’m kind of asking the same question before, like when’s your next content day, Derek, and what are you, how do you plan that?

[00:17:32] How do you, what are you, what are you going to do?

[00:17:35] Derek Tillotson: Yeah, well, fortunately, I live in a spot in Utah, which is pretty close to the mountains, and I literally drop my kids off at school and instead of going to the office, I go to the mountains and I listen to a book or whatever while you know, like, I’m able to listen to a podcast like this one. Like and subscribe. but then it’s just me setting up. I drive to different spots with [00:18:00] different hammocks and, you know, I may have had some notes on content that I’d like to shoot. You know, one, we had somebody ask, well, where do I put my water bottle once? And so I thought, Oh, it’d be fun to just every water bottle I have in the house, just bring them all set up a hammock and then go from where do I put my water bottle to like, Oh, here, here, here, here, here, here, and just load the thing up with water bottles.

[00:18:24] And that video did. And, um, you know, it was, it was fun to shoot and that’s not necessarily a day, but now I’ve learned to shoot vertical, horizontal, you know, try to think of reels, think of stories, think of YouTube, think of an instructional thing, you know, and, um, you end up getting the media. And then I spend the other part of that day. Because I find that when the content is fresh in my mind, I can edit it very quickly, which I shot something yesterday and had it edited and sent to you guys by the end of the day. And I did that so much easier than if I sit on content for a month or two and it’s like, what did I [00:19:00] shoot again? Like, no, I want that clip, that clip, that clip, you put them together. I use Final Cut Pro because it’s so fast. I know real pros use Adobe, but it takes forever. Final Cut Pro is like iMovie. Plus, but it’s super fast and I don’t color grade. I don’t mess around with, you know, uh, too much. I use the apps for the captions. I do them quick because you know, if it’s not going to be done quickly, then I’m probably not going to do it. And so that’s how those content days look for me. And I think, you know, depending on your business, on your product, I think that there’s a possibility to go use your stuff. Once a week and he gives you more gives you more experience. Obviously you get content around it as well.

[00:19:44] CJ: Yeah, I think you.

[00:19:45] Zoë : like what you’re saying is on your contention days, you literally just get out there and shoot content that you

[00:19:49] Derek Tillotson: Yeah

[00:19:50] Zoë : don’t plan too much for that. I’m just going to go through a bunch of content. So, For other people that might be listening that are in a similar boat when they’re just starting out for the first time, what would your [00:20:00] recommendation and advice be?

[00:20:00] Just like, get out and shoot content, don’t worry about it too much, and learn the process. Like, what would you advise for someone?

[00:20:06] Derek Tillotson: Yeah, so on the tick tock shop there they sell these like little necklace So that’s like a you you look like an idiot doing it, which is why I like going to remote places in the Utah Mountains like a collar that you wear and it puts your iPhone just POV like this and Honestly, if you have a product that requires any assembly Or set up like the easiest thing you can do is like buy that it’s 10.

[00:20:30] It’ll be embarrassing. You wear it. Hope nobody sees you wearing it. And then you set up your product and, uh, I, did that. It’s funny because I saw it on TikTok. I could use that. then I bought it. It showed up. I went that day and shot content. That video now has, I think, between platforms around two million views or no, has a million on YouTube now.

[00:20:50] So around three million views, just organic views off of that piece of content from that, you know, little neck collar that keeps your camera like this, uh, like that, you[00:21:00]
[00:21:00] CJ: I, I cannot escape those ads on Tik TOK. Uh, they’re going to get my money. It’s just a matter of time. I don’t, I have no use for it. I’ve just, I’m just like, I just need to stop the ads.

[00:21:10] Derek Tillotson: Yeah, exactly.

[00:21:12] CJ: Also too, I feel like,

[00:21:13] Derek Tillotson: at it, if you look at it, it’s like greater, greater, greater sending you stuff anyway,

[00:21:18] CJ: yeah,

[00:21:18] Derek Tillotson: one that’s actually pretty good. It’s worked out. So like a simple, like if you’re, if you, if you have a brand and if your product requires any set up or you use it in any way, shape, or form, just explain yourself, setting it up use it. And that is like, that is great content. For you to, and then when I post something, I don’t just post it on Instagram. I post it on Instagram and Tik TOK and YouTube shorts and you know, all three and see sometimes the algorithm will hit in one and it won’t hit in the other. And the other time it’ll like, you might as well give yourself three shots at getting something to go.

[00:21:57] CJ: yeah. I think kind of [00:22:00] the, the lesson might be, well, first step one, uh, create a product that can be used in the outdoors where nobody can see you use it. And then you can shoot all your content without embarrassment.

[00:22:13] Derek Tillotson: of your own home,

[00:22:14] CJ: Okay.

[00:22:14] Derek Tillotson: a

[00:22:15] CJ: Yeah.

[00:22:17] Derek Tillotson: right? Yeah,

[00:22:19] CJ: Okay. So step one, you can only use, you can use the product and complete privacy.

[00:22:23] Uh, that would be ideal. That would be ideal. Um. I also love that just like, Hey, don’t overthink it and just go shoot, jot down some ideas and go make it work. And it doesn’t even need to be, you don’t even have to be that creative. It’s just go set up the product, just show the product. So we, we had a client ask us, Derek, the several weeks ago, you know, what separates your best clients?

[00:22:50] Best client partners with your, you know, average ones. And, uh, we put together a whole presentation for it and we had a bunch of stuff, but one of them after thinking [00:23:00] about it was just this key statement, the, our best clients produce lots of content made by people truly passionate about the products. And like every word in there is like strategically chosen and And like you guys, you are just a shining example of that because like you have to be like, like you said, just get out there and use your product and show it because you know, Hey, let me get a closeup of this zipper pull.

[00:23:29] Cause that thing’s like really special. I, I know when it went into that and it doesn’t have to be, you don’t have to be the actual designer or product inventor, but like you do have to be passionate about like, Oh, I love the material here. Let me get, it. A clip of me just running my fingers over it so the people can hear it so you can do like a little ASMR.

[00:23:47] But if you’re not passionate about the product, you’re not going to shoot that stuff. Um, so I think if anybody was like listening, my, my advice hearing you would be, try to clone a [00:24:00] Derek on your team. If you’re not you, then go get one or two and build a little team if you can afford it. Then they can have the freedom to just go have a shoot day or an editing day every day, every week.

[00:24:16] But

[00:24:17] Derek Tillotson: if your story is connected at all to the product creation story, like I understand having, and there are a couple outdoor companies that are based in Utah that I’m kind of friendly with. And one of them has done that, or they’ve, the founders went and found somebody who is. Like a little bit more maybe comfortable in front of the camera, there’s a disconnect because it’s not his stuff.

[00:24:39] You know, it’s not it’s he’s passionate about it. He likes it. But even if you’re able to connect yourself in whatever, I’m assuming that. I’m talking to the founders here, or maybe people that are in charge of that. If you don’t mind telling your story as part of it, I think that’s huge. I mean, a big part of it is when I’m [00:25:00] this stuff, I say, I was looking for a more comfortable way to sleep outside, anyway, little there, you know,

[00:25:10] CJ: yeah.

[00:25:10] Derek Tillotson: or some encouragement you, if you’re a founder to get out there and tell your story, it’s

[00:25:15] CJ: Wait.

[00:25:15] Derek Tillotson: us.

[00:25:16] We’re now, I believe the largest. Hammock company on social media. There’s, one other, but it’s not like a serious hammock company. They do. It’s like the super cheap stuff on, on Amazon. And so they have, I think a few more followers than us, but we are nipping at their heels and

[00:25:33] CJ: I thought it was going to be like a company ran by clowns or something that would.

[00:25:37] Zoë : They’re kind

[00:25:42] Derek Tillotson: it’s more of like a beach hangout type product. And they, they’ve been around for a long time.

[00:25:46] CJ: I think the pro tip hearing you hearing you say that, like, you know, hiring it out. And you know, there, it’s not their product. It’s not their company. It may be difficult to find that passion. My tip would [00:26:00] be, and I’ve seen this for other brands would be

[00:26:02] Derek Tillotson: Yeah,

[00:26:02] CJ: at a large enough scale and people know about you, go find the content creator that’s already using your product and,

[00:26:11] Derek Tillotson: yeah,

[00:26:11] CJ: that person because they’re, they’ll have the built in enthusiasm for the brand and the products.

[00:26:17] Derek Tillotson: And then they have a story, a more organic story they can tell. Hey, I was the consumer of this and now I’m creating content for them. I

[00:26:24] CJ: Yeah.

[00:26:27] Zoë : of already beat me to the punch because I was going to ask you like, if you’re continuing to grow at the rate you’re growing, it’s like, it’s not always realistic for you to be out there shooting the content all the time. Um, so obviously there is that. option of bringing in ambassadors and content creators and people using your content.

[00:26:42] Um, but just from a business point of view, as you’ve continued to grow and continuing to grow, what is it like as a founder and CEO to start making those decisions of when you need to start employing people because your services are getting that big? And can you just tell me a little bit about what that’s like as you’re beginning to grow and [00:27:00] just how you found some of those challenges, uh, just as a founder as you’ve started to grow in size and bring people on?

[00:27:07] Derek Tillotson: Yeah, for sure. And we’ve been able to keep our team pretty small. And a big part of that is I I don’t want a lot of, you know, uh, deadweight is the wrong word to use for sure. I know that’s going to be offensive to a lot of people, but I think that that leap from a small team that it’s like focused on a vision to the more, you know, bureaucratic type situation with lots of

[00:27:32] CJ: Um, what, what, hey.

[00:27:35] Derek Tillotson: 20 feel, um, I, I would say that. As far as content goes, you know, what we’ve been able to do is we’ve been able to scale it up and if you visit our channel, I now have a lot of collaborations somebody will be passionate about our product. And I’ll say, Hey, can you send me clips from your trip? And I’ll, we’ll edit [00:28:00] them down and, and collaborate.

[00:28:01] And so now I think, you know, one out of every probably five videos on our channel is actually somebody else out having an adventure with our, with our products. And so that’s been fun because it’s been a way for me to scale, be in more places than once. It’s not me out there doing a content day. I’m able to kind of leverage that. Um, but then as far as making decisions about when to scale in the company. know, it’s, I realized, and we’ve added more people over the years when I am so busy doing the things that are not income generation, not income generating, and I listened to a real estate agent explain this once that in his business, he was making money when he was showing houses and finding new listings.

[00:28:44] It was those two activities that he was doing that was making him money. And the second that he drifted away from that into paperwork, into advertising, into all these different things, he stopped making money because those are his income generating activities. within Haven Tents, our income generation activity is when [00:29:00] I’m telling the story of Haven Tents. So, The other stuff that I ended up doing, which was, you know, logistics. Our, our most recent hire was somebody who just handles logistics. I did this because I was no longer able to focus on marketing and telling the story. I was spending all of my time dealing with shipping and customs and, you know, projecting inventory and like all of that stuff, which I kind of enjoy doing.

[00:29:26] I like doing it, but it’s not an income generating activity for us at Haven Tents. And so like, anyway, that’s how I make my hiring decisions. uh, you know, can I offload some of these responsibilities into ways that we can grow and expand?

[00:29:43] CJ: Is it always, um, is it always to a point where, you know, you’re doing all of it and you have like a full, a full workload, a full time job that you’re hiring for? Or do you make hires where you’re going to like, Hey, this is probably [00:30:00] 20 hours, but I have some future plans that they’re going to, uh, that will fill in.

[00:30:04] That’ll actually allow us to do new stuff that we’re not doing yet. How do you think about that?

[00:30:08] Derek Tillotson: That was hard. And we actually struggled with that for a long time because I realized, man, like, I don’t think that I have 40 hours for somebody new. um, and I’m talking like a focused 40 hours. And if you look at, at my chat, GPT, there are conversations of like, what does the company need to do?

[00:30:26] Like, I don’t understand how companies that are parallel to us that I think that we’re probably around the same size. Like, how do they have 10 people? Like that doesn’t make any sense. Like, what are these 10 people doing? And, uh, you know, having these, and so like, I would say like, that’s been a, a strength for us being efficient, but at some point it was like, yeah, I tried to hire part time somebody good part time and I just couldn’t find it. And so we almost had to carve out enough space for, you know, 30 [00:31:00] hours rounding up to 40. And now we’ve continued to grow and scale. Now there’s more stuff to do. So now it’s a full 40 hour position. I’m just talking about like the last one that I hired for. But, um, yeah, it’s hard to find good people to show up for like a part time gig, you know.

[00:31:16] CJ: Yep. Yeah. Any other milestone? Go ahead. You so

[00:31:22] Zoë : I was going to say, you also just talked about that you’re making these comparisons between your company and other companies that are maybe at a similar point, but they have 10 employees and you have a handful. In terms of just general inspiration from other companies, do you look at any brands or what brands are you looking at in particular that you’re like, okay, this is cool, cool product.

[00:31:39] I’m taking inspiration for X, Y, Z. Is there anything that comes to mind with other companies you take inspiration from?

[00:31:45] Derek Tillotson: Yeah, I’ve, I’ve been a Peak Design fanboy for a long time. Um, I, I really like Peak and every time that they create content, I’m always like, they’re so good. Like that stuff looks so beautiful and it’s so well shot. And then I like, I look at my [00:32:00] stuff, like, my stuff sucks. But

[00:32:02] CJ: Transcripts provided by Transcription Outsourcing, LLC.

[00:32:06] Derek Tillotson: notch. So there are definitely some, some pacesetters. I would say though that the biggest inspiration for me has been my mom. And I don’t, I’ve never talked to you guys about her, but my mom is an entrepreneur, she is somebody and I, I grew up in a family of entrepreneurs. My grandma in the late 70s lost a bunch of weight on a diet called the Cambridge diet, which was a predecessor to the slim fast shapes. And so she lost on this product, just using it as a customer. And she had a wig business at the time. She had Clara’s Wigs in Salt Lake City, Utah. And people would come to get their wigs fixed or to buy a wig from her. And they would say, Clara, what happened? Like, you’re looking so good. She goes, well, I’ve started using this product.

[00:32:52] And she started selling it, kind of, you know, making it available retail. And they decided that they were going to start selling this through, [00:33:00] through, through direct sales, through, through network marketing. And maybe. My grandma, one of the first distributors and my dad was, uh, uh, he was working on the oil rigs at the time.

[00:33:10] And he kind of stumbled into, you know, home one day and Clara’s like, Hey, you should my grandma, Hey, you should quit the oil rigs and come, come do this diet thing with me. And my dad had never been on a diet before in his life, but he trusted his mom. He believed her story, took all of his money and invested it in this like little starter kit of product.

[00:33:32] And as he tells the story, he went out in search of a fat person. He goes, Hey, I’m, I’m selling a diet. I got to start somewhere. And he just got into action, you know, saw somebody walking down the street, pulled over and said, Hey, we need you to talk and started pitching my grandma’s story, uh, about this diet product. And, you know, this is like, I think he’s. 26 or 27 years old. And this is the 70s. years later, he made 1. 7 million selling that diet product, [00:34:00] but the company was mismanaged and it ended up going filing chapter 11 two years later and their income dried up. My mom and her friends started working on a side project called new skin. And, uh, they started kind of developing skincare product based on all of the good, none of the bad. And what they took was that the Cambridge diet was demonstrably better. And that, that being a product that was so different and so much better that you could demonstrate, you could show it on half of somebody’s face, this. You know, early new skin products, you can put on half of somebody’s face and they could see the difference right away that, wow, my skin is better on this side versus that. And so from that little, uh, concept, doing demonstrations, telling the story, uh, my mom was able to build a great business. She’s the senior vice president of the company and she’s been able to do very, very well.

[00:34:55] And so as far as like companies that I’m inspired by, I would say that story [00:35:00] has been huge for me because watching the power of a product that works. And, uh, you know, they’ve been able to grow it all over the world. And, uh, now it’s a pretty, pretty big, big business. And so that’s, that’s been an inspiration for me.

[00:35:14] CJ: I think it’s like, it comes back to, you first mentioned peak design and your guys, what you guys are doing and it starts, it sounds so stupid, simple, but it starts with make something that works or is good. Uh, this is a huge thing for us too. When we, when we’re even considering working with a brand on the agency side, it’s the first question that the thing that I ask is, Why did the world need this?

[00:35:42] Why did the world need another hammock? Or what, you know, what is better about this? And then if the brand has real trouble answering that question, it is a huge red flag. Um, because from our side or even your side, Derek, like when you’re trying to market the thing or sell the thing, if it’s, if it [00:36:00] is just comparable to your competitors and there’s nothing really different or better or special about it, geez, that is so hard.

[00:36:07] To sell if it’s just so easy, if it works, it’s high quality, people love it and you have a unique selling proposition. And I think that’s been a testament to Haven success. Big time. It’s like, why do, you know, why does putting a product demonstration video go viral, viral, not even do well goes viral. It’s because the product itself is just so remarkable.

[00:36:31] Like, I tell everybody when I describe the brand, I tell them, when you see this thing hanging there and you see somebody laying in it flat, it looks like magic. It doesn’t, I, I’m like, I still don’t really know how it works. Like, I know it’s, it’s the trust, it’s, and it’s how it’s built and, but it still looks like you, it looks like a magic trick that Siegfried and Roy would do, like, and put the hula hoop over somebody as they’re, you know, floating in the tent.

[00:36:59] Derek Tillotson: [00:37:00] That’s a good video right there. We should do that.

[00:37:02] CJ: Yeah,

[00:37:02] Derek Tillotson: video.

[00:37:03] CJ: yeah, we could probably do it with some fancy slating and, uh, clean slates. We could, we could do it. Yeah, for maybe, maybe for a product launch that’s on the horizon.

[00:37:13] Derek Tillotson: Yeah. See, I was just going to go buy a big hula hoop and actually, you know, hang it up and say, there’s nothing like, how is this person laying flat? I think that’d be awesome.

[00:37:23] CJ: Yeah.

[00:37:24] Derek Tillotson: Have a model probably my wife or one of my kids come and lay in it, you know, that would be quick. I could do that in 10 minutes done content.

[00:37:34] CJ: Any big mistakes that you can think of that you’re like, oh god, I regret the way we did that or I wish we had, you know, done that sooner. Anything like that?

[00:37:44] Derek Tillotson: you know, you ask that question is part of your invitation and I’ve been thinking about it and honestly, looking back. It’s all everything the things that I wish I knew absolutely could if I would like start over again me now that I’ve grown and everything. I could do it a lot better and a lot [00:38:00] quicker now for sure. I would say that there’s no one things like a major thing. Oh, don’t do that. That was the one thing that we got wrong. I would say that the thing that we’re struggling with the most right now is exporting this vision to retailers. I think that when we Because we can meet with people in person or on social media and we can convince them this is the most comfortable way to sleep outside. I think that retailers see us as just another hammock they think of us, oh, this is a more expensive hammock. I think that that’s the category, that’s the box that they’re putting us in and they don’t necessarily do the investment or they don’t see it for themselves. And I think this is the case because we have a couple of retailers, one in Norway and one in Sweden now that are starting to get it their customer bases are starting to get it.

[00:38:47] And we’ve seen every year they, them ordering more and more and more product because. You know, now they’re starting to understand what they have here, which is not a hammock, not a tent. This is sleep. And so, um, [00:39:00] that’s been something that’s been very difficult. And I would have thought, you know, Canada, we should have somebody in the UK.

[00:39:05] We should have somebody in the UK for sure. these are big markets. In fact, Canada is our number two, as far as web traffic. Our number two location, like we should absolutely have that,

[00:39:15] CJ: Yeah. What’s, what’s the process. What’s the process for getting into retail or what has been your experience? Like, what does that look like? Is it just trying to find contact information and go after the buyer? Like, how are you guys going about that?

[00:39:27] Derek Tillotson: So believe it or not, the best ones have come to us. And one of the reasons why we’re doing our Kickstarter soon, Kickstarter is because it is this big publicity push. You’re right. You become really visible all of a sudden to a bunch of new eyeballs. so initially we showed, uh, that’s how we met our, our main retailer in Norway. That we did our Kickstarter and I was looking for somebody to help us fulfill, they reached out to us like, Hey, and then we just kind of, it worked. they’ve been an awesome partner ever since. They just ordered, [00:40:00] know, more tents than they’ve ever ordered. And so, know, it’s great. So, sometimes we’ve been fortunate to have them come to us.

[00:40:07] Our cold calling efforts, though, have kind of landed a bit flat. We’ve got some things going through that. But, uh, We’ve looked at distributors, but distributors, they always caught, they charge so much and all they are is an introduction then you have this like barnacle on your business for the next forever of a distributor like you were working with the retailer, they’re the ones that are buying stuff and then anyway, that’s kind of we’ve, we’ve messed around with distributors before, but you know, not again, not really getting that success, so maybe we’ll have to have a chat about this one day.

[00:40:39] How can we communicate this better to retailers and get that image, you know? Yeah. For not just what our product category is. Yeah.

[00:40:50] CJ: in my past life as a entrepreneur, like getting into retail, your story just brings all these haunting memories of it. And [00:41:00] it really came down to just old school networking. I, it was like, Oh, I know the buyer at CVS. I can get you an intro and here’s what, here’s the pro tip of like, I just, and it needs to be the most concise pitch possible cause they get so many things on their desk.

[00:41:19] Um, and yeah, that’s how we got into a few different big retailers and it was just, it was just an intro from somebody who knew them. Um,

[00:41:27] Derek Tillotson: And we’re not even looking for, for us retailers. I actually had a call with Costco today and I was going to mention this, but, um, they’re interested in having us do kind of a roadshow anyway. So that’s

[00:41:37] CJ: Maybe we can bleep that out. We’ll just bleep out the retailer name.

[00:41:43] Derek Tillotson: Well, I don’t think it matters. I think, I think they’re fine with it. Like

[00:41:47] CJ: Yeah.

[00:41:47] Derek Tillotson: they called us, but we’re not interested in, in getting us retailers just because we’re not. We love our D to C now. I know what that is, uh, you know, method here in the U. S. It’s so fun to build a [00:42:00] brand. It’s so fun to, like, interact with customers on a one on one level there.

[00:42:03] They, they feel like they’re supporting a small business, which they, you know, kind of are not so small anymore. But, uh, um. So most of this outreach has been international, which makes it harder because it’s

[00:42:14] CJ: Yeah.

[00:42:15] Derek Tillotson: to find, you know, those bridges across those bridges.

[00:42:18] CJ: So other than the, just the fact that you love having the direct contact to the customers, why, why no retail in us, why not go after that? Yeah.

[00:42:27] Derek Tillotson: It’s also the margins that the REIs of the world require. Also, and I would say this is for my background in direct sales, direct sales products work best when a story is being told. really work very well on a shelf. And when our product is sitting next to other hammocks lined up, it looks like it’s in a more expensive hammock. You know, but when they see our ads, they see us telling, talking about it, they see that it’s something different. And so, you know, I, I, part of me is nervous [00:43:00] that if it sits there on the shelf at RAI, like what’s going to differentiate it other than the fact that it’s more extensive,

[00:43:05] CJ: I think one of the tough things,

[00:43:07] Derek Tillotson: really going to be conveyed?

[00:43:08] Yeah.

[00:43:08] CJ: the tough thing in my experience is, you know, you get your shot at retail and they say, okay, we’ll do a pilot with you. They don’t give you any love and support. So like you said, you know, I’d like to tell a story with merchandising around the product and maybe signage and all that.

[00:43:23] And they’re like, no, you’re not getting any of that. You’re you’re nobody, you’re the, you’re a little brand. We’re going to, you’re, you should be grateful that we’re even putting you in the store. Um, and it’s extremely hard to drive sales for a smaller brand in retail because ultimately no one knows, knows you.

[00:43:41] Um, and, uh, yeah, we found that really, really difficult. There’s some stuff you can do with like geo targeting. We had a little bit of success on the ad side, so it’s like, Oh, you know, you know, you’re going to be in this area of this CVS or this REI and let’s just heavy up on the ads there and see if we can drive foot traffic and interest and awareness in that geo.[00:44:00]
[00:44:00] But even then the. Just the conversion rate of retail is minus 0. 0001 percent of people, you know, so

[00:44:09] Derek Tillotson: Yeah.

[00:44:09] CJ: really, really tough.

[00:44:11] Derek Tillotson: it’s one thing to generate the purchase, but then if people don’t know what our product really looks like, they don’t know what it really is,

[00:44:18] CJ: Yeah.

[00:44:19] Derek Tillotson: When they go to set it up at home, right? Like our thing is weird. And so I’m afraid that they’re going to, that they won’t set it up, right. They won’t get the right results. They don’t have our contact information to discuss it or whatever. And so, you know, potentially, I, uh, I look at the product curve where things go from innovators to early adopters, early majority, late majority, and, you know, traditionalists, there’s like bell, bell curve of innovation. And right now, we’re still in the early within our company, I would say, and so. We know once it becomes fully established and I think that it will and I love it on your podcast you’re saying like what helps [00:45:00] brand go from the two or three million to it to a hundred million dollar brand and the potential for Haven is up there. I really think that this could be a hundred million dollar brand plus. we are, if we’re selling hammocks, then there’s no way it would be like every hammock sold would happen to have to be a haven for us to get there. But if we’re selling sleep, like all of a sudden that opens up a lot more doors. And so early adopter is a fun place to be. Uh, because like the customers are more excited.

[00:45:31] They’re they’re less nitpicky. They’re willing to kind of, you know, invest in figuring out how to use it. But once enough of it is established, then if you put it in retail, have already seen it from a friend. They will have already seen it. Maybe, you know, they’re. They go camping and one out of every five people is sleeping in a haven at that point.

[00:45:53] It just makes so much sense to be in in a retailer because at that point, it just needs to be widely available. So where we are [00:46:00] in our product adoption, I think we’re just a little bit too early in that curve.

[00:46:04] CJ: Yeah.

[00:46:05] Zoë : Derek,

[00:46:05] CJ: it also kind of

[00:46:06] Zoë : you,

[00:46:07] CJ: go ahead, go ahead. So

[00:46:08] Zoë : you mentioned that you like being on the ground and interacting with customers and really just being there to show the product. you talk a little bit about what your trade show strategy is like? Like how big of a part of that is your business? I know you go to Hang Kong, you already mentioned that. Is there other trade shows and how significant does that make up, um, a portion of your business of going and interacting on the ground with customers?

[00:46:31] Derek Tillotson: Yeah, it’s, it’s pretty small. And part of it is just because it’s so much easier to run an ad on social media than it is to like actually set up a booth and to have the inventory and everything. And so we do a few local events. Uh, kind of that are close to the Utah area. Um, one thing that intrigued me, and I’m not saying that we’re going to do Costco.

[00:46:52] It’s kind of a weird thing, not where people normally go for like hardcore camping here. But at the same time, [00:47:00] they allow you to set up and demonstrate. so their vision for it was You have a hammock up there, you hire an employee to sit there at the hammock all day telling people about it. And even if the purchase doesn’t happen at the Costco, like, geo target the Costco for ads the day that the show is running, and you’re able to get that second or third impression, you know, and potentially facilitate the rest of the purchase, you know, as a direct sale, so. Anyway, the fact that that opportunity is there is great, but you know, right now, I, I honestly, one of the reasons why I like doing the Western Hunt Expo every year is that everybody is super nice and they’re willing to be on camera and we create content. So we go there for, yes, we sell hammocks. We’re also creating content as part of that show.

[00:47:51] CJ: that’s huge.

[00:47:52] Derek Tillotson: So it’s not, we, we don’t have like a, oh yeah, we go to every single trade show. And there are people, a lot of people that I meet at the few shows that we go to, they [00:48:00] are those people, they live in a U Haul and they go from event to event to event, like, you know, selling their products. Um, and, uh, that’s not the lifestyle that I want, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m big on life balance right now. My most, my biggest obligation is to raising kids. I got three of them, like, that’s what I want to spend my time doing. If the growth of Haven is, you know, delayed or slowed down at all because of that, like. So be it, like that’s, that’s the price I’m willing to pay because the one thing that I’ll never get back is this time with my family.

[00:48:33] CJ: Awesome. I’m thinking the, just building on other opportunities for Haven to showcase the story, the in store demo is amazing. Even just not even demo, just sitting there. I mean, that would catch somebody’s eye. But, uh, have you thought about trying to go television, like get interviewed on like a morning show and things like that?

[00:48:54] Have you been?

[00:48:56] Derek Tillotson: Uh, so, is this a leading question?

[00:48:59] CJ: [00:49:00] No, I, I actually, I realized that it was accidentally,

[00:49:03] Derek Tillotson: I was on, now that you mentioned it, CJ, I was on Buy It Now. I was interviewed by Jamie Siminoff from the Founder of Ring and J. B. Smooth and Gwyneth Paltrow. And yeah, so I have had some opportunities to do that. I’ve been on like the, you know, local news a bit, but yeah, I think there’s absolutely room. uh, know, uh, to, to do that, to be on a morning show, even if it’s a paid placement, I think that there is some cool opportunities there that would really, um, you know, uh, help us tell our story to more people.

[00:49:37] CJ: were you also able to see, uh, I’m even curious of the local news feature. Were you able to see any sales come in from that or like notice it, or was it too, too small of a blip to know?

[00:49:48] Derek Tillotson: I think it might be the ones that we’ve done, and I’m actually doing it again, uh, when I get back from, from this trip that I’m on right now, but. for, for Spectre. but, uh, [00:50:00] Yeah, so, I think that the blip was made, it was we didn’t have a code or anything, so it’s hard to say, you know, we did, uh, the first time we did it, we did see some local sales and we tried to kind of attribute to that and a bunch of, like, my neighbors saw it, I said, who watches daytime TV?

[00:50:16] I guess some people, but again, what we were able to do is around and we shot it ourselves. In studio and then we’re able to turn around and turn that into content like immediately and so that’s another great tool for us

[00:50:29] CJ: Cool. Uh, thanks for the time, man. The, I want to be respectful of your time. It’s, is there any last pro tips? That you want to give us. I have one last question for you too, but

[00:50:43] Derek Tillotson: Okay. Yeah last pro tips, you know, um what I say this is probably this is becoming a bit of a life motto what I lack in experience I make up for in confidence if there’s one thing that you can as a business owner can just go for it like like whatever you just make just be [00:51:00] confident in yourself be confident in your product and And what you’re doing and the decisions you’re making You know, if it takes you a month to make a decision, we’ll make it wrong first and, you know, maybe fix it.

[00:51:13] Like, I don’t know, don’t, don’t spend all, all of your time in that like pending period, just take action, get into it, you know, make some mistakes, fall forward. And, uh,

[00:51:26] CJ: love it. Love it. Then if you think through, this is awesome because I’m in my, in my head, I’m just kind of I see this podcast is just, maybe it becomes a book someday or like a playbook or we’re just doing it just genuinely to learn, like, what are, what are the phases of business growth? What works at those different phases and what doesn’t work and all that?

[00:51:46] Is there anything like, what questions do you have or what do you want to send us off into the world to try to figure out on your behalf, I guess? To put you on the spot.

[00:51:59] Derek Tillotson: yeah, [00:52:00] we might need to edit for time here, but, uh, what question I would say the biggest question was, was that what I shared, which is how do I, I know how to reach a customer, but how can I reach a buyer with this same enthusiasm and same ability, because it’s a harder nut to crack. They’re more focused on, like you said, a million things come across their desk every day.

[00:52:25] Like how do we stand out in that space? that’s something that I would have a question around is I know how to sell to somebody but I don’t know how to sell to an international, you know, retailer that I’m trying to target.

[00:52:38] CJ: Yeah, I think it’s cool. Maybe this becomes like the recurring segment of like, all right, thanks, Derek. Now let us go find somebody. And I actually do have somebody in mind who would be great at answering that question and let’s go find them and talk to them, see if they’ll be on as a guest. Um, but thank you so much.

[00:52:56] I will, of course. Like and subscribe.[00:53:00]
[00:53:00] Derek Tillotson: And I have to say that, TJ, we obviously work together and, you know, Zoe as well. But the reason why I decided to work with you at Vulgar is every time that I’ve been on a call with you, I’ve learned something. And so like right from the, right from the get go, when you were giving that presentation, it was like, Oh wow.

[00:53:17] I came away understanding marketing, understanding how I could tell my story better. And so I’ve appreciated that. Hopefully I was able to share something with the rest of the world today, but you, you guys at, at Vulgar definitely have a lot to share and I’m, I’m grateful for it.

[00:53:31] CJ: Oh, right back at you. I like at wholeheartedly. We don’t work with people that we don’t get along with. So you gotta be cool. Number one. And number two, you gotta be putting something out into the world that makes the world a better place or solves a problem in a novel way. And you guys are crushing it at that.

[00:53:48] And if you have that, it makes our jobs. A lot easier and more delightful. So it’s just been a joy. Every, every time we’re able to interact with you guys, get on the phone, brainstorm [00:54:00] stuff, make an ad for you. It’s been really, really fun working together and I hope we get to continue to do it for a very long time.

[00:54:08] Derek Tillotson: Great. guys.

[00:54:10] CJ: All right. Thanks.

[00:54:12] Zoë : so, so much for your time. As always, it is such a pleasure chatting with you. It’s really enjoyable. So thank you for hopping on today.

[00:54:18] CJ: All right. Roll credits.