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[00:00:00] Michael: If anybody ever called me and said, Hey, we want you to run an internal agency for a performance marketing team.
[00:00:06] 80-year-old retail FinTech out of Dallas, Texas. I would’ve said, no effing way, no effing way does that sound like fun.
[00:00:15]
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[00:00:20] CJ: So what happens when the Tom Brady of Agency client services switches teams to the client side? Well, that’s what this episode’s all about. We’re joined by Michael Catanzaro. He was my former mentor and we trade war stories about working together where we had to spend time in cadaver labs doing product research, working on ASICS, working on Petco, and Michael breaks down what it was like to go from the agency side into the client side and build essentially an internal agency or an internal marketing department inside of MoneyGram, which is one of the world’s largest companies. This one is a great episode packed with tons of insight of what it takes to [00:01:00] actually crack, you know, innovation and take creative risks, particularly if you’re in a non-creative environment.
[00:01:06] So stay tuned. Can’t wait for you to meet Michael.
[00:01:10] Hey, so let’s start here. Uh, Zoe, I am
[00:01:12] Michael: Yeah.
[00:01:12] CJ: to introduce you to Michael Catanzaro, and, uh, he was, we worked together light years ago and was just one of, uh, one of my mentors, one of, one of maybe the top mentor. I don’t know. I don’t know. But, uh,
[00:01:26] Michael: I mean, look, that, that, that current guy was, was pretty good. I mean, I, I listened to that one. I was like, shit, I gotta follow that guy. He was pretty good.
[00:01:34] CJ: Um, but yeah, I think, uh, I, I’m so stoked that this is gonna be like a humble come off as a humble brag for myself, but not, but like, I can’t believe you remembered it, Michael, which was, um, I always used to refer to you as like the Tom Brady of client service and, and account strategy because the analogy was just the game had slowed down from you.
[00:01:57] I was young in my career and just, [00:02:00] you know, you were seeing the play unfold before, you know, the, the snap of the ball to keep the analogy going. Um, and I think that’s just a testament to, you know, how good you are as a, you know, marketing strategist, but also, um, you know, that you can’t be experienced, you can’t teach experience.
[00:02:16] And so I learned a
[00:02:17] Michael: Yeah,
[00:02:17] CJ: and on, you know, some of the coolest, biggest brands. Um, and, uh, I don’t know, we, so Zoe Michael was my mentor for a long time and learned, well, learned a lot from him and. We worked on, uh, a few different brands together. I’m sure we can tell some stories from the trenches.
[00:02:34] I saw you posted on LinkedIn. The, uh, the cadaver laugh,
[00:02:38] Michael: y you know, it’s funny ’cause as I’m like branding myself now and just applying, you know, it’s like, what do I do now? It’s like, oh, I just do what I do for brands for myself. And so I’ve been actively doing that and so I’m thinking of like content strategies on LinkedIn and. Healthcare. ’cause I’m, I’m planning a move out to, uh, the Charlotte, Raleigh area and there’s a ton of FinTech and a ton of healthcare out there.
[00:02:59] So I figured I’d [00:03:00] bolster my old healthcare experience, reached out to some of those team members and stuff. And so I was like, what cool engaging content can I find? And then I remembered we went and, and a cadaver lab and actually, you know, watched the thing and you were part of it. And so it was, it was great that we reconnected and reconnected again and then this thing came up.
[00:03:18] I was like, oh, sounds like the perfect time to repost that. ’cause you were there, you were there that day and almost fainted, if I remember.
[00:03:25] CJ: No way. I would never do that. The um.
[00:03:28] Zoë : Wait, I need to know more context. Do you tell, what was the, uh, what was the activation?
[00:03:33] CJ: So, um, we, we used to work on, uh, a brand called, uh, Boston Scientific in the neuro on the, uh, spinal cord stimulation product, which is this really cool product that Michael, I’m gonna butcher it ’cause it’s been so long and you probably know it better. Uh, why don’t you tell it you’re the guest. How about you?
[00:03:49] You tell it. It’s your
[00:03:50] Michael: Oh
[00:03:50] CJ: you just posted on LinkedIn.
[00:03:52] Michael: sure. We were, we were both there. So it was a spinal cord stimulator called Spectra. Spectra Spectrum. Spectrum Spectra. Oh [00:04:00] shit, I almost forgot it down too. Anyway, it’s a, it’s a little battery implant, right? Like Medtronic’s got ’em and what have you, and then this one was like a revolutionary one. And so it was, you know, we were in San Diego and it, it’s based up all the way up in Valencia, so it was like a good four and a half hour drive just to get up there and meet with these people.
[00:04:17] Super fantastic team at Boston like that. Loved working for them. They loved working with us. We were them for like 10 years launching some of these med device products and one of the things,
[00:04:25] CJ: by the way, is, uh, this is gonna take a dark turn, but they, I remember it was around the time Paul Walker had crashed his car and it was
[00:04:32] Michael: yep.
[00:04:33] CJ: their headquarters. And that was like, I just remember going there. And they’re like, yep. And that’s the tree.
[00:04:38] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Like it’s like you make a right turn that’s there and then left turn is the office of Boston Scientific. Um, anyway, so one of the things that they prided themselves on, on making, you know, their partners and certainly agencies like us do is, is just get involved. So we would go to trade shows, we meet with the sales people, we meet with patients, we meet with patient advisory boards.
[00:04:59] [00:05:00] And one of the things was going to the cadaver lab, which was on site and watching an implant. And they, they show you how this thing gets put into. And it was this, I called it the canned ham ’cause it’s just a torso that somebody donated, right? I’m a donor. Somebody might do this on me one day. Um, and then I show you how they make the incision and, and do the whole thing.
[00:05:21] And it’s, you know, it’s in a cold room ’cause it’s, you know, there’s dead flesh in there. And it’s, it’s myself and CJ and Cassandra, if you remember Cassandra. She’s fantastic also. And we were just there watching this thing, and CJ might have got a little woozy. I mean, he’s like a six foot eight person, so the air is already thinner as it is.
[00:05:37] And then I think he just kind of,
[00:05:40] CJ: I don’t remember any of
[00:05:41] Michael: yeah.
[00:05:42] CJ: I do remember though, I mean this is unrelated to, I, I don’t remember getting woozy, but I remember them giving very clear instruction. If you feel woozy, you go to the wall and you put your back against the wall, and then you slowly squat down. And that’s the safest way
[00:05:56] Michael: Yeah.
[00:05:56] CJ: faint.
[00:05:58] Michael: Yes.
[00:05:59] CJ: remembered that [00:06:00] lesson for my whole life. I have no problems with fainting though, so I don’t, it’s not like I’ve ever had to use it before.
[00:06:06] Michael: Yeah. Well, good. Never, anyway, that’s why, that’s why we were there.
[00:06:11] CJ: Hey, so catch us. Catch us up. So we, that was, that was so many like light years away. What, what happened after that with you?
[00:06:21] Michael: Well, you know, so I was at Vitro for a long time, 16 years. And, um. The, the funny story with that one is as a client services member and, and somebody who’s been, you know, pitching business and working on accounts and that kind of stuff is you make relationships with all these clients. And so one of our former clients left to go do something else and then came back to Vitro to hire Vitro as you should.
[00:06:44] ’cause we chose a great agency. Um, and then I became the account guy on it. And then, so in a weird twist of fate, they were like, Hey, we need somebody on our side to manage you. And I was in a period of my life where it was time for a change. And so I [00:07:00] said, I think that’s me. And they’re like, nah, you’re a vitro, lifer.
[00:07:02] You know? I go, no, it’s probably, probably time to move on for, you know, for all of us. And then so I hopped over to, to MoneyGram and basically my job there was to start an internal agency. And what was great about that was like if anybody ever called me and said, Hey, we want you to run an internal agency for a performance marketing team.
[00:07:20] MoneyGram, 80-year-old retail FinTech out of Dallas, Texas. I would’ve said, no effing way, no effing way. Does that sound like fun? But the people that were, I would be working with, the expectations of what the brand was going to be doing was appealing, was very appealing. And so we, so I went to MoneyGram.
[00:07:43] We hired Vitro, who did a great job for the first year and a half. Then, um, the, they MoneyGram was, was bought by a private equity firm. And then everybody from the top down got involved in everything. And then, so eventually we went, ended up hiring a new agency, which was Cutwater, [00:08:00] who actually also ended up being a really good agency for us.
[00:08:02] And then slowly but sure I started building an internal team. So then by the end, I had 12 people, none of us there anymore, uh, who were basically running an internal creative team for the globe. 400,000 retail locations, 200 countries. Um. Tens of millions of dollars of media budget, um, and all of the assets and everything that would, that would go along with it.
[00:08:24] So talk about a, a learning curve to go client side, but also very familiar and just the ability to sort of focus all of three point experience. Uh, you can’t replace that, uh, into one brand actually felt, felt pretty good. So, um, I’ll say the, the hardest part for me was it’s remote. They’re in Dallas. And I’m in San Diego.
[00:08:45] And so when you’re used to collaborating with people in and out of an office all day, even post COVID, it was pretty tough to sit. Um, I’m in the global headquarters of what is now MCAT marketing, but at the time for [00:09:00] MoneyGram marketing is my kitchen table, right? And so that was, that was probably the toughest anyway, but it was great a, a great experience and that, that’s kinda what I’ve been doing.
[00:09:08] And now I’m just looking for what’s next.
[00:09:10] Zoë : Nice.
[00:09:10] CJ: When you
[00:09:11] Zoë : find it? So, oh, sorry, cj, go on.
[00:09:13] CJ: go ahead.
[00:09:13] Michael: Go ahead.
[00:09:14] Zoë : I was gonna say uh, just remote life and building culture and you were talking about like building an
[00:09:18] Michael: Yeah,
[00:09:19] Zoë : to begin with. I would just love to hear you speak about that and how you navigate those challenges.
[00:09:23] Michael: yeah, yeah. Um, you know what, what helped me personally was, again, the connections I had made from a career standpoint, particularly on the creative side, to know once I got feet wet in terms of what Muddy Gram was trying to do, that made it easy for me to go, oh, that’s the kind of team I need to build. And so there was an entrenched team there and, and a lot of them were still part of the group who were, you know, basically a big part of the design and production and that kind of thing.
[00:09:49] But in terms of like creative leaders, direct creative directors who can bring an agency caliber level of work to an in-house agency, I reached out to the networks and, uh, that I have [00:10:00] and found somebody who I had worked with at Vitro, who also was in San Diego, cj, I don’t remember Ash Cabal. Was he there when you were there?
[00:10:08] Can’t remember. Anyway,
[00:10:09] CJ: think so.
[00:10:10] Michael: he’s somebody I’ve known for over 20 years I worked with at NYCA and he was somebody who knew how to take a, create a big brand idea, but also produce it in all of its different pieces and parts, which as we know from a media plan standpoint, become exponentially more and more every single time you turn on a media plan.
[00:10:27] And so he was somebody I brought in. So to, to answer your question more directly, it was great. ’cause even though we were all sort of remote and using all the tools and everything you could do, Ash was in San Diego. And so Ash and I would have what we called office hours. And so we would get out boards and things on walls and do that process still, and then just translated certainly digitally and then certainly remotely to the best of the team and.
[00:10:50] And go from there. And then everybody else I worked with, which I also uh, had an opportunity was there were some folks on the team who were, had bigger aspirations than they originally were hired for. [00:11:00] And for me, I always loved bringing up good talent. CJ being one of them in a way where they go, oh, you don’t wanna just be this thing.
[00:11:07] You wanna actually do that and maybe elevate to that. Let’s give you a shot. And then, so we actually had two creative directors. One was a writer who ended up actually helping run this, the studio that we had in house. And unfortunately she also got let go. But she was fantastic in a role that frankly I never would’ve thought she wanted until she raised a hand and said, can I get that shot at that?
[00:11:25] And then so we elevated her too. Yeah. And then we were running a pretty tight team and we were just going through the throes of meeting with AI automation companies, so like Seche and Smartly and Innovates and Adobe Firefly and all those folks to go, okay, now I actually need to turn 12 people into like 10,000 assets a month.
[00:11:43] How do we do that? And then that’s where we stopped.
[00:11:46] Zoë : so cd, remind me, you started as an account manager. What was
[00:11:50] CJ: Yeah. Account account supervisor. Um, I don’t know if I immediately reported to you, Michael, but I, I can’t remember. I think maybe, but, uh, [00:12:00] no, uh, Terry anyway, um, yeah, as an account supervisor, I do remember that title because, um, I. When I got the job offer letter, I was entertaining a couple other offers, but they were for like, account manager positions and I had like, just, I had missed that.
[00:12:17] The position that was offered to me was account supervisor uh, and I was like, oh, this one’s better. That’s like, and that’s why I took the, took the job. Um, ’cause like, you know, at that point all the, the salaries and everything were comparable and I was just like, oh, but this one’s a better title. I’ll take that.
[00:12:36] Zoë : This is a truthful like circle moment that Michael, you must be so proud that CJ started with you and now he is like running a company. Did you ever see that coming?
[00:12:45] Michael: Yeah, of, of course I did. Uh, you know, there’s, because CJ if I remember, you didn’t come from like a real traditional background either. Like, and so, you know, to see talent, like, you know, and this, this may potentially come off of a humble [00:13:00] brag, although I’ll tell you why. I remember you’re, you compliments as well because there’s just a few people who you go, alright, beyond a job description, beyond a title, beyond a salary, beyond a, a client assignment, you know, whatever.
[00:13:10] They just haven’t, you know, like an it to be cliched for a moment. And so CJ’s definitely one of ’em. There’s another, uh, person that worked for me who we did a lot of events for Asics and she hated it. And then one day she had a moment at an event that she went, oh my God, I really like this now. And then she went on to run her own event company with like Steven Spielberg or whatever, and then now she’s head of events at Netflix, right?
[00:13:34] And so it’s one of those things where I go. Yeah, I might’ve had a little help with that, you know? And so to see CJ doing what he’s doing when we reconnected in Kensington, ’cause we found out we were neighbors, um, through social media, which is a funny thing to say. Um, to be able to, you know, hear what he’s accomplished and and is doing now is, is, is fantastic.
[00:13:52] Very proud. Very proud and well deserved because he’s, he’s awesome.
[00:13:55] CJ: I still remember. So, uh, Tom, uh, Tom [00:14:00] Sullivan was the CEO of Vitro at the time, and, uh,
[00:14:03] Michael: Yeah.
[00:14:03] CJ: still
[00:14:03] Michael: Still is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He and John still run that place. Yep.
[00:14:07] CJ: yeah. Good, good guy. And I remember I was sitting, I think it was, uh, he was sitting next to me on a couple of beanbag chairs, very agency cliche. Um, and I don’t, again, I was a young guy.
[00:14:17] I had no idea what I was doing or talking about. I was probably, and then I look back, I’m like, I was an idiot. Like I didn’t know anything in hindsight.
[00:14:24] Michael: takes their idea. In hindsight.
[00:14:26] CJ: Yeah. Uh, back to, to Russell Kern, he would always say, you know, we’re all, we’re all in the art of sales at all times, and sales is just passion meets conviction.
[00:14:37] So just say it with passion and say it without blinking and people will follow. but anyway, I remember Tom asking me like, think you would ever start your own agency one day? and I said, oh yeah, yep, definitely. And, uh, he goes, oh, really? He goes, do you, do you have a name picked out for it?
[00:14:59] [00:15:00] And I go, yep. He goes, what is, and I look back at that, I still think about this. I go, I’m such an idiot. Don’t tell the CEO of your agency that you’re gonna start another agency. And I have no idea. We never talked about it ever again. But all I can think about in hindsight is I, he probably doesn’t even remember that conversation, but he was probably like, oh yeah, he’s not gonna be here long.
[00:15:22] Michael: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:23] CJ: in that guy.
[00:15:25] Michael: Well, I will say the, the, one of the good things, uh, many good things about vitro is, is the roots and seeds, I guess, that they plant. You know, that they actually then do take care of other people, right? Ca case in point, but this, this MoneyGram thing, right? It’s like as, even as I was leaving, which didn’t make a lot of people happy, but it’s, at the time I was like, I was happy to be on the other side of that fence working with, with this agency.
[00:15:48] And so whether you go freelance, whether you start your own companies, what have you, the understanding of building bridges, not burning ’em and, and keeping those connections be, you know, a lot of, lot of former vitro employees became [00:16:00] clients, uh, which is interesting. And so I think that’s a good testament to that, to that group.
[00:16:04] So, yeah, I don’t think he told any, any trade secrets outside of, again, he just demonstrated how much passion you have to go beyond. Tom is an entrepreneur and he is somebody who didn’t even probably think at one point in time he’d own an ad agency and then he did. And he is having a blast doing it. But he had to have that mindset first.
[00:16:22] Right? Not necessarily the goal of an agency, but just the mindset of, oh, I wanna do something different. I don’t wanna be your employee forever. Right. And that’s actually pretty cool.
[00:16:30] CJ: Yeah. Yeah. What you, you mentioned learning curve when you went client side. Uh, can you unpack that? What’s, what is it like over there?
[00:16:39] Michael: Yeah, for, for sure. Um, you know, it’s, it’s funny ’cause every fear we had on the agency side of how politics and internal dynamics of a client, a hundred percent true. Right? The layers, the, um, decision making that you go, you know, like why did a client make that decision? And you [00:17:00] go on the client side, you go, oh, now I know why.
[00:17:02] Right? And it wasn’t, that’s like a bad decision or a poorly planned decision. You can just see like all the different threads and layers of a product team or an IT team, or a procurement team, or a sourcing team. All of those things that we used to always say on the agency side, it’s like, okay, we get. The marketing team.
[00:17:17] And the marketing team then also has to manage an internal team of their own. And then they have to manage us as an agency. And we might even be one of multiple agencies they’re managing. So like really our universe, which is the most important, universe, is really a very small part of a client’s universe.
[00:17:32] And that became very clear being on the other side. So even though I was managing a vitro and a cutwater doing world class work, it was 10% of my job in terms of internal support, HR support, resourcing and sourcing and pitching budgets and all these other kind of things. And then what seemed like willy-nilly decisions on the agency side.
[00:17:51] Um, the client side were very clear. It’s like, oh, that’s why we’re canceling this project you’ve been working on for six months. You’re pissed. You did a lot of creative work. You burned a [00:18:00] lot of hours. Oh, it’s because compliance killed it or because a partner dropped out, right? Your things that you just don’t know that actually happens on the client side.
[00:18:09] So that learning curve I guess, helped me be a bit more patient and understanding of that universe, but then also to help understand, okay, if, if you’ve got an idea and you wanna get done, you gotta move quicker and you actually, you know, it gotta almost fly under radar because as soon as it like you pop head above sand, a lot more people actually have to be involved.
[00:18:29] Zoë : You’ve kind of already answered my question with just moving quicker, but now you’ve worked on both sides and you’ve seen the internals or like agency side and client side. What would you do differently as an agency knowing just internally how clients work?
[00:18:43] Michael: Uh, that’s a great question. Um, I, I think, I think it is in the, in the, the speed standpoint. You know, I remember being on agency side, there was like, okay, we’re doing the scoped work and you know, we’re at Scope group because we’re on fourth or fifth round of something and it’s taking more time. And so there’s, there’s always sort [00:19:00] of, and, and then everybody’s working on something else, right?
[00:19:01] Agency model is you’re probably not dedicated to one account, therefore you get burned out real quick. Uh, or you just end up doing kind of what’s you’re, you’re being asked. And I would say what is missing on the client side is agency partnership proactivity. Uh. Ideas from anywhere because you tend to know the business.
[00:19:20] EE even more. So. Uh, and so I would say, you know, if there was things I would wanna do differently on an agency side is to, is to almost have kinda like we talked about with like a content plan now, right? Is like, is like an idea plan every month. Somebody, maybe the people who don’t even work on the business, they’re just bringing fresh ideas all the time.
[00:19:39] And 99 out of those hundred aren’t gonna get done. But it stays top of mind. It says you understand the business, it re reinforces, um, the partnership is beyond a scope kind of thing. But I would say those things that on the agency side you felt weren’t important on the client side, actually are important.
[00:19:56] Even if a client’s telling you don’t do it. I,
[00:19:58] Zoë : Hmm.
[00:19:59] Michael: I would say [00:20:00] from my perspective, although I’m security, ’cause I’m an agency guy, that those are, those are things that are important.
[00:20:05] Zoë : That’s really good to hear. ’cause I feel like cj, that reminds me something very similar to what you’ve said previously is like one of the number one reasons agency get fired is ’cause of lack of innovation. So it’s always coming with like fresh ideas and new perspectives. Like Michael, even you said that even if you don’t execute on 60% of them, just coming with fresh ideas constantly just helps with that innovation on, on the client side.
[00:20:25] Michael: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:25] CJ: Yeah.
[00:20:26] Michael: Because even if the ideas don’t get done, they demonstrate knowledge of the space, knowledge of, of why you got hired as an agency, which is to bring outside perspectives, right? Because it’s very easy, particularly in regulatory industries, education, finance, you know, healthcare to stay right here ’cause it’s only gonna get approved by legal if we do blank.
[00:20:43] But sometimes you gotta think about something outside the box. What was great at MoneyGram was the, the avenue for that was they were an F1 sponsored. And so that sort of created this like build a lifestyle brand outside of the FinTech brand to some extent. That actually allowed a little bit more of those [00:21:00] kind of more innovative ideas that we were able to do.
[00:21:02] Zoë : Imagine healthcare being a very interesting industry to navigate with creative. ’cause, like you said, it’s like you can only do X and stay within these boundaries, otherwise it won’t get improved by
[00:21:11] Michael: Yeah.
[00:21:11] Zoë : It’s like how do you balance the creativity with like actually just these constraints. We can’t do this.
[00:21:18] Michael: Uh, I mean that, I’ll, I’ll say, and, and actually Kern on on your s one brought this up too. I think CJ you brought it up as well, is the agency, uh, relationship with the client. Is the client willing to do something? Because again, part of that learning curve on the client side is you can push legal. Legal isn’t a black and white thing.
[00:21:36] Legal is a, how much risk do you wanna take on thing? How much do we wanna potentially get sued or, or fight for or create precedent, you know, kind of thing. And so I would say the ideas coming from an agency to a more open-minded client will allow more of those ideas. To get done because then the client will take ownership of it and also then go fight for it internally to help some of that more legal, [00:22:00] regulatory, um, approvals.
[00:22:02] And then, but they all, no matter what, still have to be on brief, patient, relevant, you know, in this situation. Consumer relevant, patient relevant, uh, product, you know, uh, uh, feature, benefit, you know, value sort of thing. Like all of those building blocks should still be part of it. It’s not like you can go, oh, healthcare brand, let’s go throw people out of an airplane.
[00:22:20] But if it’s still a relevant idea, that at least has the foundation and then it’s a really cool idea that you would get a client to go fight for it. That’s how you get those ideas done.
[00:22:29] CJ: I think to build on it too, this is where the brief becomes even more critical. So like if you’re
[00:22:35] Michael: Yeah.
[00:22:35] CJ: be, you gotta tell or prep people mentally that how creative or how much you’re gonna push before you push it. ’cause it’s the surprises that make people uncomfortable and know, if, but if you say, Hey, we’re gonna work on the brief together, let’s get really comfortable with what we’re setting as like our, you know, our aim. And hey, we’re gonna really push this one out. Do we all agree you guys, hey, client [00:23:00] or brand, you’re gonna have to probably battle with legal. We just know it we’ll. We’ll do our best to stay within the guardrails, but we’re gonna probably make legal a little uncomfortable and then you guys will likely have to assume some risk. But are we all good with that before we start? I think where you get into like a tailspin is when you go ta-da and it’s like some batshit idea that would never get approved
[00:23:22] Michael: Right,
[00:23:22] CJ: And then the client’s like I. I don’t wanna put my neck out on the line. it, because it’s ev at the end of the day, everybody’s just trying to kinda look out for themselves. They could be the nicest person ever, but if it’s between me and my agency, I’m protecting myself. And
[00:23:39] Michael: right.
[00:23:39] CJ: um, yeah, I think it’s just
[00:23:41] Michael: Yeah.
[00:23:42] CJ: with the brief when you’re gonna take
[00:23:43] Michael: Yeah. And, and, and to break the rule of two add-ons, the, the behavior of a brand is a lot, opens up a lot of opportunity. I think meaning for Boston Scientific, let’s just use Bot Scientific for example, since we talk about that. It is a [00:24:00] very, very, very specific product that you can make some claims but no claims about, right?
[00:24:05] And so if you’re talking about like, advertising Spectra, wave Rider, you can only say so many things, but the brand at the, at its brand house has innovation in its pillars. Okay, well how do we actually demonstrate Boston Scientific is an innovative brand? Sometimes those ideas then go, okay, I’m not even gonna talk about the product, I’m gonna talk about what they do to innovate or how that product was born from Cochlear implant technology and you know, all of the, all these other kind of things.
[00:24:30] So case in point, that brand, because they were really great to work with. They actually, we were, as the agency V show, they actually had Tom Sullivan come present to their whole company, the, the Neuromod Company about innovation. And then a lot of the work we ended up doing actually won one of those, uh, clients and, uh, innovator Award.
[00:24:49] And so again, you think about some of the things you do outside of just the product to actually, you know, uh, get a patient, the brand did other things and was open-minded to being more [00:25:00] innovative. Right. So
[00:25:00] Zoë : Mm-hmm. I’m curious, uh, on the topic of just creative risks. Is there anything in your career that you’ve done, like an example that either paid off really well, or in hindsight, didn’t actually pay off that well, was a bit of a creative risk, but you’re like, oh, still worth it for X, Y, Z.
[00:25:17] Michael: that’s a good one. Um, creative risk. You know, I’ll, I’ll say, I’ll, I’ll equate risk for stress, right? The most stress I’ve ever had working on a brand was, was working on asics when we. Did activations for the New York City Marathon. And so it’s very easy to go, okay, how do you activate a marathon? Oh, put a booth in the Javit Center and get people to walk by and, and do stuff.
[00:25:45] But we had a great team that said, okay, if we’re fifth in market share and Nike’s dominating, we’re our sponsor of that race. Asics is a sponsor of that race. Nike’s not, but Nike looks like they are, right? Lance Armstrong is running. This is old, doing all these kind of things. So when our team then [00:26:00] ideated and actually the media team actually ideated a lot of our activation opportunities, um, they became super risky and therefore super stressful because they may not pull off like we were doing things that had literally never been done before with technology that we were creating.
[00:26:15] Support your marathon. It was RFID chips in your bib to track where you are on a course, but then actually have that queue up a screen on the track that has a prerecorded video from a loved one telling you, Hey, great job as you cross that line, you know, doing that kind of technology, putting people on a treadmill, running 12 and a half miles an hour.
[00:26:33] I don’t know how long you think you can do that. But Ryan Haw could do it for two hours and win marathons. People, I did it for 52 seconds, but knowing all the different,
[00:26:41] CJ: one runner, so she might be able to do it.
[00:26:44] Michael: there we go. Right?
[00:26:45] Zoë : on your LinkedIn that you did that with the marathon on the treadmill. It
[00:26:48] Michael: Yeah.
[00:26:49] Zoë : my interest.
[00:26:51] Michael: And so the, you know, so, so doing those kind of things were the risk reward factor. I mean there are certainly some of the most things I’m proud of, certainly most award-winning and successful in [00:27:00] terms of, of my career in working with those brands. But that would probably be the more risk where even a client is like, you’re gonna do what?
[00:27:06] You’re gonna take how much money and you’re gonna get three people to do this thing. How is that gonna reach what I need to sell shoes? Well, hold on, this is how you know. Then you have to like build the whole platform around an activation that might only have a few people participate. But then news media shows up, then all of a sudden kind, oh man, I froze on the funniest looking thing.
[00:27:24] There we go. Uh, and then news media shows up and all of a sudden you have amplification of a, of a big idea. And then I. Um, and then, anyway, that’s, that’s where I think some of those, those risks. And so it becomes down to doing your homework, having good connections and network. And then again, a client that was open, which is the as client, was definitely open-minded doing some cool things, and they, they were rewarded for it.
[00:27:45] CJ: How do you, how do you go from like, of like an off the cuff, crazy idea to actually doing it? So I find that a lot of ideas are sparked in just, you know, conversation, a meeting, a status call, and everybody kind of like
[00:27:59] Michael: Yeah.[00:28:00]
[00:28:00] CJ: and just says like, oh, that’d be cool, and then nothing
[00:28:02] Michael: Yeah,
[00:28:03] CJ: als, but, but those are often like the best ideas and then they just never get executed.
[00:28:08] Does that happen and
[00:28:09] Michael: yeah,
[00:28:10] CJ: that from happening?
[00:28:11] Michael: yeah. I, I, I’ll, I’ll tell you right now, the most valuable, the MVPs, I would probably even say if I’m gonna tout all the cool things I got to do in this business, the MVPs are the producers, um, event producers, broadcast producers, um, you know, they’re, they’re almost fixers. From a, from a, from a use that term, because they’re so connected and they’re so o the right ones are so open to go, I have no idea how we’re gonna get that one done.
[00:28:41] Gimme 48 hours, and they call you back and they go, I found this guy who’s doing this, and da da da da. I mean, you know, we’ve built, you know, Trojan horses as gyms and went to a group that builds, uh, fabrications for theme parks, and they go, oh, you know how to make fake [00:29:00] things look real. I can make you a Trojan horse look like a giant wooden Trojan horse.
[00:29:03] Um, when we were doing, uh, all of these like treadmills and all those other kind of things, um, you, you name it, it was, it was, it was, it was great to work with producers who again, just had that attitude of. Yeah, let me go figure it out. I’ll get back to you. And again, sometimes they don’t or they don’t come in the budget and or they come with insurance risks.
[00:29:22] Again, some of those things you don’t think about, like those things are what kills it. It’s like, oh, I can’t, can’t do that. And the client’s not gonna put up the money, so we’re not gonna do it. But more often than not, it was because, um, ’cause with producer, we just figured out how to get it done.
[00:29:35] CJ: Yeah, I have a, I think it makes me think of a story, uh, of, uh, we both used to work with this woman Joan, who is a pro she production producer. She was
[00:29:45] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:47] CJ: Um, and I still remember we had this crazy idea. There’s, there was a campaign for a telecom company, and we had this idea of like, big, you know, small is big or big is small.
[00:29:58] It’s like the, the, [00:30:00] biggest smallest place on earth was kind of this, this idea. And so we had this concept where we wanted to create double decker buses out of mini Coopers. And nobody had any clue how to do that. But Joan, you gave her, I think it was two days and she didn’t have one. She had two quotes on turning a fabricating, making these little double decker buses to drive around Anchorage, Alaska and pick people up and give them free rides. ultimately that never, that, that can’t, that activation never happened. But that was a
[00:30:34] Michael: Yeah,
[00:30:35] CJ: Um, and I
[00:30:36] Michael: yeah,
[00:30:36] CJ: I actually, as I think about it, I’m kinda like answering my own question. It’s like one, it’s, you know, to prevent those from just dying in a meeting with a chuckle. Somebody’s just gotta go behind the scenes and like bring it along
[00:30:50] Michael: yeah.
[00:30:50] CJ: bring it to a point where somebody can actually say yes to it. Where it’s like, Hey, we actually talked to the producer. We got a rough estimate, we got a rough timeline. [00:31:00] Slide the proverbial paper across the table and say, all you need to do is sign
[00:31:05] Michael: Yeah.
[00:31:05] CJ: it happen.
[00:31:07] Michael: I, I’ll, I’ll say, and that, and that’s, that’s usually, you know, like a, a chicken egg cart horse conversation you always have is, you know, I’m a believer you wanna sell the idea first because as soon as you sell the idea, then things like budgets and what have you typically tend to have some more elasticity to them, right?
[00:31:25] If you bring a look, I’m gonna pitch you this idea and it’s gonna cost a hundred grand and look like this, you actually might end up selling yourself short because you’ve committed to fitting in a budget, and then therefore the idea can only be as big as the budget versus as big as it, as it as it could and, and should be kind of thing.
[00:31:40] But I also agree that’s also understanding your client. If your client’s super risk averse, super budget conscious, you can’t sell any idea unless you have some of that paperwork to kind of go, we’ve called a couple people, we think we can get it done. It’s definitely gonna be within your budget, but you know, what have you.
[00:31:55] And then usually the enemy of that is also then the craft and perfection that, [00:32:00] you know, a high standard, high quality agents you particularly like with, with vitro. Is even if you could get it done for a hundred grand, is it gonna look like the way you want it?
[00:32:08] Zoë : Mm-hmm.
[00:32:09] Michael: gonna actually turn out? Are you gonna make so many concessions and corner cuts, you know, to, to actually not execute the idea you want?
[00:32:16] So, and, and super quick example of that. One is, is we were working with, with Petco and they had a classic, I need a holiday idea. Okay, I need to increase sales for online and in store. Super crowded space, don’t have necessarily a big budget. And it’s about retail sales. And so it was, it was expectations were banner ads, sales, you know, some sort of charity donation, one for one kind of thing.
[00:32:42] And then, and then our team went, you’re missing an opportunity. You’re pets and it’s holiday, right? And so that budget, let’s call it was two 300 grand in production creative team came back with a crush of an idea that was immediately bought. And then, [00:33:00] then we came back and said, it’s gonna cost us 600 grand to make it, but we’re gonna use this animation company.
[00:33:05] We’re gonna use this and we’re gonna build the network out with these assets like that. And they went so, and then that one again kicked, kicked butt in terms of its results, but also then won strategy awards and all these things because it was a big idea on brief that didn’t get constrained by a budget.
[00:33:19] And then they found the money to go do it, and they were awarded by it.
[00:33:22] CJ: Which, uh, which campaign or activation was that, that people can
[00:33:25] Michael: That was the Petco holiday campaign, uh, which the, um, guy, I can’t remember the name of the actual campaign, but that’s gonna be one of my next LinkedIn posts for sure. ’cause it’s one of my favorite campaigns break down is the idea was a kid wanted a bicycle for Christmas, but he didn’t have any money.
[00:33:43] And so he went to go shovel snow to earn money for this, this bike, right? Well then of course, the parents end up buying the bike for Christmas anyway, they just wanted to see him work hard for this thing. And so instead the kid goes, oh, I’m gonna take all this money. And during his work, he sees this dog in a pet store window, which is [00:34:00] probably controversial anyway, that only had three legs.
[00:34:03] And so it was kind of getting forgotten during the Christmas time. So he bought this three-legged dog. And then so when he comes home with this three-legged dog, it can’t quite play, fetch and, and run as fast as the kid, you know, is hoping to. So he gets this idea. I. Totally dismantles his bike and builds a a wheel for the third leg so the dog can actually play fetch faster.
[00:34:23] And it’s all done in like ranking and bass animation style uses group called How Special Outta Portland, who are like derivatives of the group that did like Co Core Line and all those kind of movies. Right. And talk about a fascinating experience that was both painful and, and and awesome at the same time.
[00:34:38] ’cause when you’re dealing with that kind of stuff, but like literally puppets and stop motion animation, there’s no re-shoot, right? Because you’re like, click, click, click, click, click storyboard’s gotta be exact, you know, all the different things that, and then all the scenes went after it. And you know, we did a, it was a 62nd mini movie with a custom music, um, that was done by, uh, serpent [00:35:00] singing Serpent.
[00:35:01] And um, it’s definitely the number one of Crown Jewel of my, of what the stuff I’ve done for sure. It’s, it’s so beautiful. Makes you cry.
[00:35:08] CJ: I think that back to, you know, when that, what you said, like when the, is it re, is it gonna be enough to do it at the quality that you want or
[00:35:17] Michael: Yeah.
[00:35:18] CJ: deal with that a ton because we’re dealing with much smaller brands, scale ups that don’t, you know, have very finite budget. So one thing that we’ve actually leaned into is if you can’t get it done to the level that, you know, let’s say you need it to be cinema quality, well you don’t have that budget. We’ll actually push purposely the other way. So, because we found that if you try to
[00:35:38] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:39] CJ: it off to a level of craft that you can’t actually pull off it, actually, it comes off bad and cheesy and like you’re trying too hard. But if you purposely push it to be lo-fi then it, you can actually pierce through the noise in advertising today.
[00:35:54] And you know,
[00:35:55] Michael: Yeah.
[00:35:56] CJ: the, the, the overwhelming IGC or [00:36:00] influencer generate content that we’re seeing and all that like proves that. But that would be my
[00:36:04] Michael: Yeah.
[00:36:04] CJ: is like, push the other way and don’t try too hard. ’cause you’ll just make yourself look dumb or just
[00:36:10] Michael: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think it, that’s sound advice. I mean, it’s the, the landscape for content is so much more forgiving. Um, and, and I, and think consumers are pretty savvy, right? It’s like, as much as consumers are like, yep, I’ll scroll through, influencer content and influencer content continues by far outperform any other ad that you can make.
[00:36:30] But when you make film,
[00:36:32] CJ: agency.
[00:36:33] Michael: I know, but trust me, I, and I’ve, but when you, when you make film that has story, right? To your point, and that’s, that’s still some of the most loved stuff, right? That’s people still watch Super Bowl spots, people still wanna watch more of those, like anemic kind of stories being told.
[00:36:49] Um, but I, I totally agree. I love your perspective that if you can’t go all the way, the i, as long as the ideas sound, how do you still deliver it in a way that at least comes across and like, okay, the [00:37:00] core idea is there. We’re just gonna execute it this way and not try too hard. There’s a phrase, another phrase I, I, uh, John Vitro used to say this, I assume it’s his quote, uh, don’t chase hope, right?
[00:37:10] Because we think about like agency hour burn, budget burn time, burn frustration and patience burn. They come from to, to do a classic callback. The inches not feet, right? So I think even moving feet is also decision making. Not necessarily how do you progress the idea, but how do you then go, okay, I’m gonna kill the idea and pivot, right?
[00:37:27] Or I’m just gonna kill the idea and start over again. The sooner you do that, the better versus this chasing hope inches kind of thing. ’cause then you’re just not getting anywhere. And now people are frustrated. You’re running outta time, you’re burning time. So like your, your thought there.
[00:37:42] CJ: Any what’s, what’s, what
[00:37:43] Michael: Yeah,
[00:37:44] CJ: have
[00:37:44] Michael: was in Alaska by the way, Zoe, that this quote was so another callback to talking about when we worked on Alaska Communications together. Literally sitting in a bar in Anchorage, like, and we went local, like where we got like looked at. ’cause we, people knew we weren’t from,
[00:37:58] CJ: Yeah,
[00:37:59] Michael: uh, Anchorage [00:38:00] or, or Alaska.
[00:38:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, and I remember, I remember it was the corner of that bar. And trust me, I don’t actually, I have a good memory, but I remember, um, that compliment you gave me, which is great. And it’s, it’s actually in, I’m building my website for the first time and so I have a testimonial section.
[00:38:15] Your quotes for sure. Gonna be in there because it’s one of my like top four like best compliments I’ve ever received. So, so thank you. But yeah, it happened in, it happened in Alaska, a little little bar in Alaska.
[00:38:26] CJ: Yeah. Yeah. I still remember the cheese, the bar where you would scrape the cheese off the, the wheel of of cheese right on the bar.
[00:38:32] Michael: Yeah.
[00:38:32] CJ: was like, that is so not COVID approved. Oh
[00:38:38] Michael: Definitely do things differently.
[00:38:40] Zoë : a lot of the activations you were speaking about before is like, they sound like they’re coming from brands and companies that obviously have like a lot of disposable income to be able to pull off kind of big
[00:38:48] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:49] Zoë : on a larger scale activations, like CJ mentioned, we work with a lot of brands that are like smaller scale ups.
[00:38:55] They don’t have money essentially to do these like big in-person [00:39:00] experiences. It’s like
[00:39:00] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:01] Zoë : do you strike the balance between well, navigating those conversations with clients between brand building versus like performance marketing. ’cause a lot of these ideas is clients are hesitant to do them.
[00:39:11] ’cause it’s like, okay, well what’s, what’s the return on investment? Like, what are we getting out of this? And I think it’s a conversation that comes up time and time again. It’s like. Is it wa is the juice worth the squeeze essentially versus like
[00:39:23] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:24] Zoë : uh, digital advertising, you can very clearly see metrics and performance.
[00:39:27] And I think that’s just a challenge that we see a lot with clients. And just again, interested to hear your perspective on it.
[00:39:33] Michael: Yeah. I, I think you have to look at it and, and it’s, you know, it’s, it’s a constant one. One of the things I’ll, I’ll say to go back to another question and then answer this question is, uh, the client side that I recognized a lot. Is fragmentation meaning or siloed, uh, opportunity. Right? And so even the way you’re talking about it, Zoe, it’s like, oh, here’s a digital performance media plan.
[00:39:54] Here’s an activation plan, here’s a brand plan, here’s a, they’re all one plan, [00:40:00] right? They all should be considered one plan. And so when you think about an activation, um, like, like we do for New York City Marathon, uh, did for New York City Marathon for asics, like that was one element. You know? And remember I had to build the spider spider chart of things to show like how it all is connected, but all of the content you were creating served someone else’s purpose.
[00:40:21] So it’s not like I had a banner ad campaign that has its own media and production budget, an activation plan that has its own. It was, and we used the phrase where it was like, production dollars become media dollars. If we can actually have a level of, of PR support, news support and, and, and, and it’s ’cause it’s been a while, social media support influencers on site, et cetera, who are actually helping amplify those ideas.
[00:40:44] You don’t even look at it as separate budgets. You look at it as, as one thing. And so I think for clients that might, might have small budgets, the risk is then, okay, I’m gonna take what feels like a traditional production budget, turning on a camera, ai, whatever it ends up being, but I’m actually gonna go do an event instead.
[00:40:58] But guess what? Everyone’s [00:41:00] filming that event. I’ve got influencers at that event. I’ve got database building participation at that. Like all of the different tools are actually built into that event. And then later, either that event itself or the results of that event become your other mid low funnel campaign because now you’ve got something else that’s put into the algorithm that says, oh, beyond just talking about product features and benefit, look what this brand actually did.
[00:41:20] Now I wanna learn more.
[00:41:22] CJ: I always think about that graphic that we to death, you pro is the paid, owned, earned ecosystem
[00:41:28] Michael: Yep. Yep.
[00:41:29] CJ: all interconnected and, you know, there’s, there’s attention going from one circle to the next and all that. Um, I. And then I, what I learned with working with you, Micah, was just like, let’s start with the idea first, which you already mentioned.
[00:41:43] What’s the big
[00:41:44] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:44] CJ: And then I think we used to say like, just, that’s the ham, right? And we’re gonna carve up the ham. So if it’s a, you know, a stunt or an activation or a treadmill in the middle of Manhattan or whatever, it’s like, let’s start with something [00:42:00] remarkable. You have to start with something that’s like worthy of remarking on, and then figure out how you either slice it to accomplish those goals or bolt onto it with like bringing the influencers into the fold and just like having them there.
[00:42:15] So like a strategic challenge could be, all right, well we need to amplify this with, you know, not a ton of media budget. Let’s get the influencers there. How are we gonna do that? I don’t know. Let’s answer why does it make sense to have
[00:42:28] Michael: Yeah.
[00:42:29] CJ: there and like bolt
[00:42:30] Michael: Yeah. Well, and that’s where the, the channel owners like again, need to be on board. So the way we did that at MoneyGram with an internal agency is I still called all the other people outside of my group, my clients. It was just the way we had to do it. So once we had an idea based off of a, either a media brief or a product brief or whatever it is, then I went to the channel owners and briefed them and said, here’s our idea.
[00:42:54] So like the agency bringing it to the client. And then, so like we had a Mother’s Day campaign. Mother’s Day is the second largest [00:43:00] send season for remittance across the globe. And so it’s, we have to win Mother’s Day no matter what. So once we got to a core idea in this one, it was when mothers used to call you home.
[00:43:12] When you were a kid, streetlights came on, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, you went home. But when they’re half a world away, how do you sort of come home when your mother calls you? Right. And this is, you said money during Mothers Day. Once we had that core idea and we built a campaign around it, then you go to the influencer campaign.
[00:43:27] And so then the influencer group, the influencer channel, they all went to their influencer group and said, tell me what your mom called you as a nickname and, and, and how you got called home, or what would you do if your mom called you home today? We went to the Ha F1 team. We went to the FC Dallas team.
[00:43:42] The FC Dallas team ran our spot during a, uh, mother’s Day, uh, event, uh, where they were actually having a match, uh, during, on Mother’s Day. And they actually played the spot in arena and had everybody call home right. Kind of thing. And so now all of a sudden the channel owners are briefed with the idea, and it’s up to them to go, [00:44:00] how is it best for my silo to then integrate with that silo, right, or integrate with that idea.
[00:44:07] And then that’s how it becomes surround sound.
[00:44:09] CJ: I think you just nailed that is the biggest difference that I’ve seen from the big brands that I used to work on to, and I actually, I take that back. It’s just one of the biggest missed opportunities where you come up with a great idea, whether it’s internal or the agency comes up with it, but a lack of follow through.
[00:44:29] Michael: Yep.
[00:44:29] CJ: we have this campaign and we made a TV spot, or we made a handful of social ads. And then they go and they run and then they just fade. And it’s like the, the, the brand never takes, it takes that messaging or that idea into, you know, their sales sheets or into their organic
[00:44:46] Michael: Right.
[00:44:46] CJ: or into the, onto their YouTube channel or into their sales pitches or presentations.
[00:44:51] They just never follow through and actually support the, the idea and, oh man, that’s the, the, the master brief technique [00:45:00] of going to every one of the groups is just
[00:45:03] Michael: Yeah.
[00:45:03] CJ: happen. And you have to just be like, I don’t know how you’re gonna do at PR team, but here’s our idea. and challenge ’em.
[00:45:10] Michael: right. And, and then give and challenge ’em and give everybody ownership of it, you know? And so, you know, I think there’s a fear now based off of how fragmented. Media channels are that the old idea of match luggage is dead, right? When I say match luggage, I mean you just take a visual and a headline and you resize it for your newspaper, your tv, your radio, like those, those don’t exist more.
[00:45:32] Everything has to have such a finite amount of relevancy and specificity per channel and per deliverer of that channel. But that, as long as the core ideas right, you, you can do exactly what you’re talking about and, and also make it someone else’s responsibility. So again, in any retail environment, if you’re selling something, marketing’s not a hundred percent of that job sales.
[00:45:53] Retail, the product itself. Some sort of pricing strategy, right? We’re not even just talking about marketing channels need to be [00:46:00] aligned. Like the whole company needs to be aligned to go, oh, I’m gonna win Mother’s Day, or I’m gonna win this marathon of activation, or I’m gonna win the holiday season, uh, retail season.
[00:46:09] Everybody needs to get involved. So it feels like one big idea. ’cause then that’s how a consumer then, through all of these channels and all the myriad ways, they see this content feel like it’s one idea over and over again, but not get burnt out with the same visual, the same headline 10,000 times.
[00:46:23] CJ: It seems counterintuitive, but I think there’s actually economy of scale there. You actually get more return on your investment and effort by batch thinking and executing. And it’s, and it doesn’t seem like that, but
[00:46:36] Michael: Yeah.
[00:46:36] CJ: is. ’cause it’s like, oh, now there’s,
[00:46:38] Michael: Yeah.
[00:46:39] CJ: aligned under the same idea. So not every group doesn’t need to come up with their own idea, like
[00:46:44] Michael: Right. Well, and what’s, what’s. So think about it from a production standpoint too, right? So to, so you asked earlier about, you know, how do you manage all these budgets? Well, it’s like if you have the idea ahead of content capture, you know, going into content capture, what channels need to be, [00:47:00] be supported with that content, right?
[00:47:02] And so we actually at MoneyGram worked with a group called Yada yada, and which is a fantastic name for a production company. But their whole shtick is, big agencies will go spend a million dollars capturing one TV spot. But while you’re there, hire us and we’ll get all your B-roll, all your behind the scenes, all your digital, all your social, all your library stuff, because all the heavy lifting of production value was done by the big agency.
[00:47:29] And we can come in surgical strike and capture all the stuff we actually know you’re gonna use for 10,000 assets.
[00:47:34] CJ: Genius.
[00:47:35] Michael: so, right, and they’re called yada yada, because it’s like, oh, I need all that other stuff. Yeah, yada, yada, you know, and so it’s just a great name. Anyway, look. Look them up, Maddie Clark.
[00:47:43] She’s fantastic. Anyway, so when you think about production efficiencies, right? Just having that mindset of going, I’m going into a $500,000 shoot, but I know I’m gonna need all of these things because the influencer team told me what they need, so I’m gonna hire influencers. They’re gonna come to the shoot so I can capture it all the same.
[00:47:58] Like all of those [00:48:00] things happen when you actually get ahead of that versus, oh, now I need to go spend ex, you know, exponential budget because it was done after the fact. And so you actually will create efficiencies. Your brand will look more consistent, and it’ll be one big idea versus a bunch of small ideas.
[00:48:15] CJ: On the smaller scale in our world, we always recommend if you’re shooting a video, hire a separate photographer. If you’re shooting stills, hire a separate videographer. Uh, don’t
[00:48:25] Michael: Yep.
[00:48:25] CJ: the trap of like, oh, we can just pull 4K frame grabs from the video. It never, I’ve never seen it work out
[00:48:32] Michael: Never works.
[00:48:33] CJ: every videographer
[00:48:34] Michael: Yep.
[00:48:34] CJ: tell you that’s what they’ll do. Um,
[00:48:36] Michael: Yeah,
[00:48:37] CJ: you know, pay the extra couple grand to have
[00:48:40] Michael: yeah.
[00:48:41] CJ: on just
[00:48:41] Michael: Well, and, and then, and then have the foresight too to do, you know, ’cause everybody else says, okay, what’s your live area? Well, if you use the lowest common denominator, you’re not gonna get great content. Meaning like using the space. So vertical videos obviously huge horizontal for YouTube and CTV, et cetera.
[00:48:59] And then certainly [00:49:00] square for everything else. And so if you go in, like we at MoneyGram, we worked with Kabi lame, you know, the big influencer. Guy, he, uh, he’s synonymous with the word easy and simple. And so that certainly aligns with our brand and our products. And so we went into a shoot, we had like two hours and so we comped up what he would do in vertical.
[00:49:19] So we had him standing against a wall. We needed something horizontal, so we had him laying on a couch. You know, like we actually have those things built out so that way you can move quickly through a shoot, even if it’s the B or C sort of team working on it. Because typically you don’t have a lot of time, uh, and you need to get a lot of assets.
[00:49:35] And so there is a little bit more than, yes, I can just take the four Ks, you know, still image, but also have the foresight to go, okay, how is this thing gonna look in vertical? How’s it gonna look in horizontal? Almost like pre-building some of the ads and layouts conceptually as well.
[00:49:48] CJ: Sure. Yeah. Well, I always stick with like shot list. We always aim for you want to, you want. Not a spare minute or second in that day. And if the team gets through your entire shot list, you’ve done it [00:50:00] wrong. You need to, and then we will, we’ll rank ’em like must haves, you know, B shot, C shot, D shot, and just cut the Ds.
[00:50:06] If you don’t,
[00:50:07] Michael: Okay.
[00:50:07] CJ: know, if you don’t need it. But nobody should be standing around for a second. I mean, I, I learned that
[00:50:12] Michael: No. Yeah.
[00:50:17] CJ: yeah. What else, what other, um, what other frameworks have you been using? I know you, like, I, when I think of you, I think of you like the king of frameworks, whether it’s the, the matrix like the grid or the paid, owned earned. Anything come to mind that you’ve
[00:50:29] Michael: Yeah.
[00:50:30] CJ: pulled out
[00:50:30] Michael: it’s, it’s funny, I’m, yeah, it’s funny. I’m work, like I said, I’m working on personal branding, which it’s always weird to do it on your own. I remember even trying to do it for agencies I worked at, and then, oh, we do it for other people. We don’t do it for ourselves. This idea of like a connector and synthesizer keeps popping up through like assessment test and chat GPTQ and As and stuff like that.
[00:50:52] And so it’s great that you brought that up because you know, it’s hard to kind of go like, oh, what am, what am I good at? Or what am I known for? And I think it’s, it’s exactly that. It’s taking all these pieces [00:51:00] and, and putting ’em together. And so to me what that, it’s, it’s interesting too. I did a post on LinkedIn and talk about all the hats I wore, and then I went to a career coach and they’re like, don’t talk about being a jack of all trades.
[00:51:10] I was like, damn, that’s exactly what I am, you know? Um, I know a, I know a little about a lot of things, you know, kind of that kind of thing.
[00:51:18] CJ: Yeah.
[00:51:18] Michael: But when
[00:51:19] CJ: I’m like T-shaped, really da. Really small downspout on the
[00:51:22] Michael: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s more like a seesaw versus versus a t, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Um, but when you think about understanding how all those pieces then work together to understand multiple channels, multiple client industries, you know, uh, compliance, regulatory versus sort of lifestyle. Um, those are the things that I’m personally working on now that I think, you know, from, from more fragmented client side, more expectations from every channel with reduced budgets, and certainly this expectation of AI is gonna solve all the problems.
[00:51:53] Linking all those things actually becomes a skillset that probably not a lot of people can do without x amount of years of experience [00:52:00] or some level of, you know, super intelligence. So yeah, that’s the stuff that I think is the most important, particularly as companies think about either hiring people or working with agencies, is who’s the connector?
[00:52:11] Who’s the one who can take a step back and look at the beautiful mind wall and go, ah, that’s how it all kind of works. Because, like I said, of of, it’s happened on agencies infrequently, but certainly on clients a lot is siloed and fragmentation thinking. It’s like you’re gonna get the least efficiencies, the, the less cool ideas if everybody sort of feels like they’re owning their own thing versus, versus kind of coming together.
[00:52:34] One of the thing I, another post I wanted make too is this idea of no egos. Right. And so there’s so much fear and ownership and, um, you know, what about me sort of thinking that I’ve noticed a lot in general as everybody’s sort of fearful of jobs and fearful of AI and fearful of political climates and stuff like that.
[00:52:54] But the more you break down those things and the more you just collaborate and everybody [00:53:00] owns an idea and everybody gets to take credit for the idea and everybody gets to, plus the idea. I look back as I’m building, you know, my portfolio and stuff like that. All those big great ideas were, because that was the team that was working on, it was no ego, no a-holes collaborative open.
[00:53:16] We’re all gonna share in this success kind of thing. And that’s, that’s definitely a mentality that needs to continue.
[00:53:21] CJ: Yeah. Yeah. You gotta leave the ego at the door for sure. And, and I think, again, maybe stolen from you, which, uh, the name of this podcast was stolen from you, but back to.
[00:53:32] Michael: Yeah.
[00:53:34] CJ: you know, a great execution at the end of it. You can’t put a finger on who did what. It’s just you have no idea who did it, whether,
[00:53:41] Michael: Yeah,
[00:53:41] CJ: some of the greatest headlines are written by art directors, and some of the greatest ideas for the art are come from a copywriter’s brain or vice
[00:53:49] Michael: yeah, yeah. I mean, and so, yeah, ’cause you, you’d mentioned that I got a little credit for the bad idea for clarity. It, I was, as an account person, I could have easily [00:54:00] been waiting for the creative idea to come. Right. But it wasn’t the environment I was in and it wasn’t certain, it was a mentality I had. And I even found more creative sort of, uh, passion and joy even later in my career.
[00:54:13] ’cause I got to work with more no ego, no a-hole creatives where an idea could spark something even if it wasn’t your exact headline. And so if there was anything, I always tried to teach the client services teams I worked with was, you got an idea, bring it. Don’t say you’re not creative ’cause you’re only in a creative department.
[00:54:28] Bring it, bring an idea. And, and if anything it actually teaches you. The thick skin creatives have to have. Because, you know, we would say like, oh, nine outta 10 don’t get bought. Well, 99 out of a hundred don’t get bought. 99,000 out of a hundred thousand don’t get bought on the creative side, right? And so they’re just getting, you know, nos left and right until that one idea comes through.
[00:54:50] So don’t be shy to bring an idea. Don’t be shy to help sort of spark an idea. And I think the bad idea for clarity is a great example of, of a mindset, not [00:55:00] necessarily a role that just says, bring the ideas. You know, you hear social influencers and content creators all the time go, don’t over perfect it.
[00:55:06] Don’t over edit it. Just post it. Just post it. Move on to the next one and something will strike or not, you know, but, but just do it because if you overthink it, you’re, you’re gonna make no progress.
[00:55:17] Zoë : Totally.
[00:55:18] CJ: think, go ahead, Zoe.
[00:55:19] Zoë : gonna say, I just really love the idea of like, and it sounds like a lot of our, our core company values are coming from you, but it is like something that works so well on our team is just like. I know we talked a lot about like virtual versus in person, but just getting everybody on a call and almost having like what you would in terms of like a wall with sticky notes, but like a mind map and having your account managers, your like copywriters, your designers and it’s just like a room where you’re just throwing ideas on the wall.
[00:55:43] And I think what we found by the end of that, you are just using terminology such as weeds rather than like my idea. Because at the end, those
[00:55:51] Michael: Yeah.
[00:55:52] Zoë : you’ve just constantly kept like punching up someone’s idea or building on it. So you walk away being like, actually that was collective, like, that was all of our ideas together. [00:56:00] Um,
[00:56:00] Michael: Yeah.
[00:56:00] Zoë : yeah, just I strong component of just like we, instead of I and getting the whole team involved just to generate ideas is so
[00:56:07] CJ: And, and
[00:56:08] Michael: Yeah.
[00:56:08] CJ: my seat too, just as kind of like team captain of the agency. I’ve had some, you know, we have a lot of great people here and we’ve had some new people join who are amazing. I. Um, and I’ve had to pull them aside and just say, Hey, look, killing it. You’re bringing so many great ideas to the brainstorm.
[00:56:26] You’re doing all this. And then, you know, I, I hate this, but it’s like as CEO, like I don’t want to hear I in a brainstorm meeting by the time it reaches me, I want all the ideas to be we. So I would, you know, I told this person, and if they ever listen to this, they’ll know it. It’s them. But it’s like, I need you to meet with your team before you meet with me and I need you to get like either
[00:56:51] Michael: Hmm.
[00:56:51] CJ: make your idea contagious and have them build on it or give them an opportunity to contribute to it.
[00:56:57] So by the time it comes to the CEO or by the time it [00:57:00] makes it to the client, it truly is a we idea and not a me. And I go and, and between I’m like, you’re outshining everybody don’t do that. Like make them part of the process like.
[00:57:12] Michael: Right, right. Well, and there, and then, and you know, there’s, there’s a couple things to unpack there. One is, there’s still roles, right? Even though everybody’s creative, everybody has ideas. At the end of the day, it should be a, the agency pitching to a client and the, then the roles come into play. So me as an account person, it was like, I’m bringing you an idea, but not necessarily, ’cause I want you to buy my idea.
[00:57:32] It’d be great if you did, but because I want you to know what I think the client would buy or what I know I can sell. Right. Kind of a thing. And so a lot of it becomes, you know, it’s like creative versus account, but it’s like, no, no, no. The, the account has the role of understanding client dynamics and then knowing what will get bought.
[00:57:50] Not to say buy the things that the client like. There’s a great quote, I think another John Tro quote that says, client approved is not automatically good. Right. Getting [00:58:00] approved is not good necessarily all the time. Right. And so to understand the roles and so when you’re talking about, I dunno what role that person is that you’re talking about, but as they bring their ideas.
[00:58:10] The, we also becomes a, oh, but we’re also on the hook to pitch it. And we also have ownership of it, right? Ownership of getting it done. Ownership of, of feeling confident in it, right? And making it work. So it’s not just the ownership of the idea as much as the whole program, and then everybody, and then, then the client also has to own it, right?
[00:58:28] And so if you’ve got a junior or mid-level client, you’re probably pitching to first they should be in the room pitching to their bosses. We think this is a good idea. Not necessarily, oh, that agency brought me something I was, I was half and half on it as it is, you know? But everybody should be up the ladder feeling the we, which, which I agree with.
[00:58:45] CJ: and I think that’s a really good point. I mean, and advice too if you’re on client side or on agency side of like making sure that everybody has, um, you know, a, a piece of the story or con contributing. And for us it actually varies by client and their [00:59:00] culture, right? So we have one client has, who has a stellar internal creative team and we’re really there to collaborate and be an extension of their team or just amplify the awesome stuff that they’re doing. And, um, we tried a couple times coming to them and just saying, with a really fully baked idea and multiple of them and going, ta-da. We got it figured out and it actually backfired big time because they didn’t have any input to it. So they were like, this is really cool, you know, golf clap for your, um, effort, but, uh, our fingerprints aren’t on it. so now with them, we make a conscious effort. We bring them stuff intentionally, half-baked. ’cause if we go any further than that, they’re not in, they’re just, they, they haven’t contributed. Other clients, on the other hand, have no time for us. You said 10% of your day is interacting with cl uh, agency.
[00:59:50] There may be like 1%. So,
[00:59:53] Michael: Right.
[00:59:53] CJ: other clients are very literal and they need something that they can just put their rubber stamp on and move on to the next thing. And so, [01:00:00] you know, you just have to, and I
[01:00:01] Michael: Yeah.
[01:00:02] CJ: if you’re, if a client is listening to this, somebody on the brand side, I think, um, talking about that, communicating that expectation with your agency would be a really smart thing to do. Um, and I always say the problems in our business or in business in general always can be traced back to either a lack of or poor communication. And every time, I can’t think of an instance where it’s not,
[01:00:24] Michael: Yeah.
[01:00:25] CJ: yeah.
[01:00:26] Michael: Expectation management. Expectation management is, is huge. And so, you know, to me, my absolute favorite part of working on agency side that I definitely missed working on client side, um, was every hour. Felt like a different job. If you were talking to a different client. You were talking to a different team.
[01:00:46] You were talking internal, you were talking external, you were pitch, you were learning about new business. And so if you’re, I’m not diagnosed a DD, but I certainly feel the, the feels of it. Um. You know, the ability to go, you know, to sort of [01:01:00] ping pong your day actually was exciting to me and invigorating to me and an extrovert, you know, and all that kinda stuff.
[01:01:04] And so if you think about, oh, one client likes it this way and another client likes it that way, again, that’s the role of that account person to go, Hey, team around us. This is how I think we should build this pitch or build this idea. Because that’s how that, that team’s actually gonna work. And that is absolutely born from your new business onboarding, new client onboarding, management of expectations, manage.
[01:01:24] And again, all the other stuff I talked about on the client side, the politics, the like, what does it take for you client to get something done? And if a client has a motivation, which a lot of clients do, how do I make you look good? Because when renewals come around, you’re the first line of defense to go, I need to keep that group right.
[01:01:41] You know? And so again, that really comes from that account team. But again, it becomes a we, because account team’s only as good as the creative team, the media team, and everybody else around them. So
[01:01:49] CJ: Yeah. Um, wanna be
[01:01:52] Michael: I
[01:01:52] CJ: of your time? This is a crazy
[01:01:55] Michael: get stuck all day.
[01:01:56] CJ: I. All right,
[01:01:59] Michael: So us [01:02:00] opens on over here. If you keep seeing me go like this, it’s like, yeah,
[01:02:03] CJ: I think the longest one we’ve done here is like an hour 20, so we could, we’re,
[01:02:06] Michael: yeah,
[01:02:06] CJ: with the new
[01:02:07] Michael: yeah. Well, I assume you clip this down to only the good stuff, so
[01:02:11] CJ: I just publish. In fact, in fact too. It’s just, uh, just
[01:02:15] Michael: Yeah,
[01:02:16] CJ: publish.
[01:02:16] I’m gonna
[01:02:17] Michael: yeah,
[01:02:17] CJ: that just
[01:02:18] Michael: yeah.
[01:02:18] CJ: publish.
[01:02:19] Michael: Just publish. Just post this post.
[01:02:21] CJ: the, uh, uh, so the, the, the spirit of the podcast is for us to try to answer this question, like, how do brands go from a few million dollars in revenues? You know,
[01:02:30] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[01:02:30] CJ: the startup phase. They’re past the, out of my garage phase, um, to a hundred million dollars.
[01:02:37] And I know none of us can have the answer. That’s why this podcast go talk to a million
[01:02:41] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[01:02:42] CJ: it. Um, when I ask that question, comes to your mind from your, just from your experience, what, what, what comes to your mind?
[01:02:51] Michael: Yeah. Um, you know, patience is, is probably one of them, right? Like we, the, the, the world, any industry, anything you, you [01:03:00] do or watch Patience is is running out, right? Everything’s shorter, shorter attention span. Dude, I, I, I do some music production and I was watching this music producer and he was talking about the, the age of 92nd songs is coming.
[01:03:13] I’m like, 90. How do you emotionally attach to a song that’s only 90 seconds? It’s crazy, right? If you think about six second videos and all that stuff. Anyway, patience would be the one where you, you put a plan together. The first step of any plan is to expect that plan to fail, but put a, put a plan together.
[01:03:30] And, you know, a phrase we use a lot with Asics ’cause they were, um, big underdogs to Nikes and Adidas is win where you can win, right? And so I think before you scale, before you worry about big budgets per se. Is, find places you can, you, you can win. And then, and then sort of prove that out and, and scale for there.
[01:03:47] Find your, your, your unique proposition. Find your audience and build small from there and then amplify it. So I think a lot of people want to cast wag nets and they want, you know, c and cost per acquisitions and everything [01:04:00] at, at its most, most efficient. And I think sort of learning a blended CAC model is important.
[01:04:06] So you’re gonna spend, let’s call it 400 bucks at the top, but you’re gonna spend 10 bucks at the bottom and somewhere in the middle is probably your 50 to a hundred you’re trying to achieve. Right? And so having an understanding of what that looks like over time. I mean, cj when we were working on Boston, you know, we had negative, uh, if I remember ROI on the first few months of that, it was like a paid social media plan, very targeted to people who need a $60,000 implant.
[01:04:32] By the end of, let’s call it the first year. And certainly by the end of the first two years we were at 1900% ROI, right? And so, but that was born from audience identification, USP, small budget, build, audience, rinse, repeat, learn, et cetera, et cetera. So that would be my, my probably one word answer to that is, is, is, is patience, confident you have a plan.
[01:04:55] Stick to the plan as best as you can and learn and iterate. And then, and [01:05:00] then figure out how to amplify.
[01:05:02] CJ: Yeah,
[01:05:02] Michael: And then on the outside of that, do some crazy things just to test them. Right? Just drop a, like what did you do over here? Oh, I did that. I did that. ’cause you also never know what’s gonna make you go go crazy
[01:05:13] CJ: yeah. A couple ideas come to mind to build on that. I saw one of the co-founders of Airbnb speak at a conference years ago, and they almost went outta business several times when they were trying to start it up. I mean, they,
[01:05:25] Michael: damn.
[01:05:25] CJ: not meant to be. um, he used the phrase, cockroach mode. He goes, we just had to, we just had to outlast and keep living. and I think at the beginning, even in the $3 million mark, like just building that business intentionally and cockroach, cockroach mode, but then making some smart investments and committing to them and being patient. Like
[01:05:51] Michael: Yeah,
[01:05:51] CJ: a good one. Like, um, my advice would be build it into the business operations, like a, a media budget and don’t cut it.
[01:05:59] Just be like, [01:06:00] this is what we’re spending on media and put the pressure on making it work. The whole blended CAC or all that. But it’s like, no, we’re spending this percentage of our revenue on media every year, every quarter, whatever. And we just gotta efficient with it. Um,
[01:06:15] Michael: Yeah, yeah,
[01:06:16] CJ: comes to
[01:06:16] Michael: yeah. And there’s no lack of, you know, certainly in today’s world, there’s certainly no lack of learning
[01:06:22] CJ: Yeah.
[01:06:23] Michael: and. And, and that’s a good and a bad, right? Because you could be in spreadsheets all day long trying to figure stuff out, right? And as data gets flattened and averaged and whatever, you kind of miss some opportunities to be where there, where there is opportunity.
[01:06:37] And so I would say, you know, part of that patience is when I say learning, it’s don’t necessarily like open up to seven tags of a spreadsheet and go, where’s the opportunity? But kind of look at, okay, where’s the trend? Creative is at least 50% of that media plan, by the way. Right? And so what’s the message?
[01:06:54] You know, having the varying messages out there to see what’s working, what’s not working. But you can definitely get lost [01:07:00] in and, and data. You should definitely have a really good data analyst who loves getting lost in that data, but then synthesizes it and crystallizes it back to you and go, oh, here’s some action items.
[01:07:08] I think you should, you should do.
[01:07:10] CJ: Yeah, we talked a lot about, um, just prioritization and one of the ones that is missed when you’re coming up with like strategies or tactics for the business is impact, like I. I learned from, uh, another mentor when I was a data analyst. Like the worst words you can hear from somebody when you’re an analyst is, oh, that’d be interesting to see. And uh,
[01:07:34] Michael: Yeah.
[01:07:34] CJ: he, he is the man. Uh, and uh, he said, when, whenever you hear those words, ’cause you will, uh, just, you need to push back and say, if I show you that, if I show you that data, what action will you take based on the results of my findings? Um, because oftentimes it’s, oh, nothing. I’ll just be interesting.
[01:07:52] I’ll be, you know, maybe
[01:07:54] Michael: Yeah.
[01:07:54] CJ: smart in a meeting. Um, yeah. And it’s so, impact is the one that’s always missed. So it’s like, oh, if [01:08:00] we find this out, is it, is it going to affect the lives of a hundred customers or a million customers?
[01:08:07] Michael: Great.
[01:08:07] CJ: would be the other one of just prioritizing,
[01:08:11] Michael: Yeah,
[01:08:11] CJ: oh man, we’ve said it all. We’ve said it all.
[01:08:14] Michael: great. This was, this was great. I appreciate, appreciate the invite. Wonderful meeting you, Zoe. Thank you.
[01:08:20] CJ: Is there anything that we didn’t, uh, didn’t ask that we should have asked or people should know?
[01:08:26] Michael: Uh, no, uh, well, I mean, to your point, we could go on, we could go on all day. Um, I will say particularly in the field you guys are in and any agencies and obviously the fear of ai, creativity and automation and all that kind of stuff, but, you know, I’ve, I’ve, I have my own POV on that, which we can probably do for another one.
[01:08:45] But, um, I’m more excited about it. I’m definitely excited about the, the, the creative opportunity and frankly the, the, the grunt side of production that can happily be handed to the robots. [01:09:00] Um, that’ll just allows more creativity and more opportunity and, and, um, and um, that’s the kind of stuff I would definitely touch on, you know, down the road and excited to learn more about myself.
[01:09:12] CJ: Yeah. Yeah, we’ll have to go into that. I just posted a quote, uh, from Sam Altman on LinkedIn where he is like, you know, in the past, the technical guys in like the startup worlds, like the developers used to laugh at the idea guys. Like, oh, there’s an, I look at there another idea
[01:09:27] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[01:09:27] CJ: look for somebody to build his idea.
[01:09:29] What a
[01:09:30] Michael: Mm-hmm.
[01:09:31] CJ: Uh, and he goes, I think the idea guys are gonna maybe come out on top here.
[01:09:36] Michael: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it’s a great way to put it. ’cause that’s, you know, somebody, to me, as I had mentioned, I know a little about a lot of things. You know, I can’t necessarily, without a lot of rewiring and learning, go, create, make my ideas happen. Well, now I can. And I got a million ideas and I have even more outlets now to, to get those, those things outta my head.[01:10:00]
[01:10:00] CJ: yeah, yeah. We’re having the same sentiment over here of just, it’s, uh, you know, maybe could be famous last words, but it does seem that, uh, AI is actually just gonna, it’s gonna push a lot of, it’s gonna raise the bar and push it to the middle. Push the, meet the average right to the middle of like, okay, now the, you know, the average ad, the average creative will probably have good fundamentals. It’ll probably look half decent, but everything’s going to start looking the same ’cause of the, it’s just gonna
[01:10:27] Michael: Yeah,
[01:10:28] CJ: after itself and Snake will eat its tail. And you know, again, could be famous last words. I, you can get some
[01:10:35] Michael: well, I mean,
[01:10:36] CJ: if you’re good at prompting.
[01:10:38] Michael: well, and so the prompting like, you know, there was no, there was no sort of such thing as a, you know, digital ad manager a while ago. There was no such thing as a social media influencer a while ago. So it’ll kill jobs, but it’ll certainly create jobs. And I’ve got two kids graduating college.
[01:10:55] Um, and the first thing I’ve said to them is, you know, just like cable wasn’t a fad, [01:11:00] internet wasn’t a fad. Social media wasn’t a fad. AI ain’t a fad, right? You better figure it out and figure it out quick. Um, and it has pros and cons like everything else did. Uh, of, of, I think of innovations in the, in the past.
[01:11:12] So, but it’s definitely one that is getting a lot of attention and growing very fast and more applicable, I think to our field than, than any, you know, anything historically. Even though digital and social media were a big part of marketing, AI is having a huge part in what we do.
[01:11:27] CJ: Yeah, uh obviously the most visible to everybody too. Even my
[01:11:30] Michael: Right.
[01:11:31] CJ: you know, just has Fox News on repeat, he is just like, AI’s really affecting your business, isn’t it? It’s
[01:11:38] Michael: I just a tangent.
[01:11:39] CJ: He watches Fox News till he can’t.
[01:11:42] Michael: Yeah. Uh, that’s funny. And, and parent not to go down the rabbit hole parents, but this is the first time my parents have had to deal with a son who doesn’t have a job. Right. And for them at, you know, 70 plus years old to call me and go, well, have you filled out all the applications you [01:12:00] need? And to, you know, have you, you know, have you, you know, it just like, like it took me to go.
[01:12:06] Carry my attache case and resumes and go knock on a bunch of doors in the neighborhood. Like, that’s how they expect me to go find a job. Yeah.
[01:12:13] CJ: You better be going
[01:12:14] Michael: It’s, uh, I love it when
[01:12:15] CJ: at the
[01:12:16] Michael: parents call you parents call you with advice. Like, are you, are you doing everything you can to look for a job? Yes. Yes. Well,
[01:12:22] CJ: just spiraling into
[01:12:24] Michael: yeah.
[01:12:24] CJ: but it’s, it’s almost like, um, we, we have a 15 month old daughter and, uh, you know, her grandparents coming in, you know, you’ve, I’m, you’ve been outta the game for nor nearly 40 years. Like, you, you
[01:12:36] Michael: Yeah.
[01:12:36] CJ: do this job anymore.
[01:12:38] Michael: What do you what do what do you bring it? Yeah,
[01:12:40] CJ: like, you know, a month old, like, have you given her water?
[01:12:43] I’m like, you
[01:12:44] Michael: yeah,
[01:12:44] CJ: don’t do that anymore.
[01:12:46] Michael: yeah. Uh, love.
[01:12:51] CJ: All right, man. Thank you so much
[01:12:52] Michael: All right.
[01:12:53] CJ: joining us. We’ll, uh, we’ll have to do it again. Um,
[01:12:56] Michael: Yeah. Bring on. Let’s get you more than zero a net, [01:13:00] zero followers or not watchers.
[01:13:02] CJ: So I told, uh, Michael was
[01:13:05] Michael: I.
[01:13:05] CJ: He is like, what should I prep? I go, we could talk about anything. We have approximately zero listeners.
[01:13:11] Zoë : Well, hopefully
[01:13:12] Michael: I love that freedom.
[01:13:13] Zoë : after this one, but it’s
[01:13:14] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I,
[01:13:15] Zoë : speaking with you, especially just as a mentor of cj. ’cause CJ’s such a great mentor of mine and I just think, um, yeah, it’s just been really cool to see a lot of learnings, obviously from you trickle down and pass along to us in our agency.
[01:13:27] So really appreciate the time speaking with you.
[01:13:30] Michael: Great. Thank you. Thank you. And, and proud of you cj. It’s great to see you again. And we, we’ll definitely go have another beer. And, and Zoe, good luck to you working for this guy and, and everything you’ve got because one day, I guess like on my screen, you’ll be over here and talking to somebody you mentored who will be talking to somebody they mentored and you’ll feel pretty good.
[01:13:46] Am I a grand mentor? Is that what that means?
[01:13:49] CJ: yeah, we’ll be a couple of geezers.
[01:13:51] Zoë : don’t start talking about my future agency. I’m gonna create to cj the biggest takeaway
[01:13:56] Michael: Right, right, right, right. Although he should feel proud, you’re already [01:14:00] thinking about it.
[01:14:01] CJ: yeah, yeah. True story.
[01:14:03] Michael: Alright,
[01:14:03] CJ: man.
[01:14:04] Michael: thank you guys.
[01:14:05] Zoë : Thanks. Bye guys.
Why Your In-House vs. Agency Debate Is Completely Backwards—Insights from Michael Catanzaro
What happens when the Tom Brady of agency client service jumps the fence to build an in-house marketing team inside an 80-year-old FinTech giant?
Michael Catanzaro did exactly that—ditching agency life to lead marketing at MoneyGram, scale a 12-person internal creative team, and manage global performance media and brand. What he learned along the way? Most marketers are framing the in-house vs. agency debate all wrong.
In this episode of Bad Idea for Clarity, Michael unpacks the real challenges of brand-side marketing, what agencies often misunderstand, and how to build creative systems that drive both performance and innovation.
The Real Difference Between In-House and Agency Work (It’s Not What You Think)
You’ve heard it all before—agencies bring creativity, in-house teams bring speed and control. But according to Michael, that’s an oversimplification that misses the actual tension point: ownership versus influence.
“Even though [my agency] was doing world-class work, it was only 10% of my job,” Michael said. “Everything else was budgets, internal politics, compliance. The idea you killed yourself over? Yeah, legal killed it.”
Key Things to Communicate to Your Agency Partners:
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Don’t assume you’re at the center of our (i.e., your clients’) world—you aren’t.
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Bring proactive ideas, even when they’re out of scope. Innovation fatigue is real.
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Know when to move fast and when to fly under the radar. Internal politics demand it.
How to Build a High-Caliber In-House Team—Without Losing the Creative Spark
When Michael built an internal agency at MoneyGram, he didn’t settle for a team of order-takers. He staffed it with ex-agency talent who knew how to think in systems, not just deliverables.
Tips for Scaling Internal Creative:
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Hire hybrid thinkers: people who get both brand storytelling and performance delivery.
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Stay analog—Michael held in-person “office hours” with his creative director to ideate like they were still in the war room.
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Use tech to scale creative output: explore Smartly, Adobe Firefly, and Seche early.
“We were just getting ready to turn 12 people into 10,000 assets a month using AI automation tools,” Michael noted. “That’s where it all stopped.”
Creative Risk in Regulated Industries: How to Actually Pull It Off
If you think healthcare or finance means playing it safe, Michael’s track record says otherwise. His work with Boston Scientific included cadaver labs, cochlear implant references, and storytelling that dodged the usual “here’s a doctor with a clipboard” trope.
What Enables Bold Work in Risk-Averse Categories:
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A willing client is everything: “Legal isn’t black and white—it’s how much risk do you want to take on?”
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Pre-sell the risk in the brief: prep your team to defend the idea before you pitch it.
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Use brand behavior as your loophole. “Talk about what the brand does, not just what it sells.”
The Power of Proactive Creativity (and Why Most Agencies Suck at It)
Michael pulls no punches: most agencies wait too long to push new thinking.
“Every agency should have an idea calendar. 99 out of 100 ideas won’t ship—but it shows you know the business.”
Agencies that fail to bring fresh thinking—even if it’s off-brief—get fired. Period.
Want Your Agency to Feel Indispensable?
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Ask for one new idea per month. Suggest a rotating “idea captain” on the agency side.
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Ask for your agency to innovate visibly. Proactive ≠ invisible.
From “Cool Idea” to Reality: How Big Ideas Actually Get Done
Ever hear a batshit idea in a brainstorm and think, “That’d be cool,” before letting it die in a Slack thread? Not on Michael’s watch.
“Your best friend is the producer. They’re fixers. The MVPs of any crazy activation.”
His System for Idea Execution:
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Spark the idea.
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Pull in a producer within 48 hours.
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Vet logistics, risk, and cost quietly.
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Slide the full plan across the decision maker’s desk.
Why Performance vs. Brand Is Also the Wrong Question
Most CMOs are forced into a false binary—performance vs. brand. Michael’s take? Build ideas that fuel both. As Vulgar CEO, CJ Forse, says:
“Start with the ham. Then carve it up into performance slices.”
How to Blend Brand + Performance:
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Use one big idea as the nucleus (activation, video, etc.).
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Distribute through earned media, influencers, organic, and paid.
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Demand that every stakeholder—PR, social, retail—activate against it.
Resources Mentioned:
Listen to the Full Episode
Want the full story behind building an internal agency that thinks like a creative shop?
Listen to the full conversation with Michael Catanzaro on the Bad Idea for Clarity podcast here:
What’s holding you back from scaling?
- The 21 most common killers of scale
- 50 pages of tips and ideas to overcome barriers
- Unlock your brand’s potential to scale
