What DTC Brands Get Wrong About Content Shoots with Danny Owens of Toil Studio

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[00:00:00] CJ: In this episode, we welcome Danny Owens, who is one of the founders of Toil Studio, which helps brands bring their creativity to life through still photography and videography, and just overall production and brand design. The guys. Been around a while doing awesome work for Lululemon as well as Urban Outfitters, Topo Chico, other really cool brands.

[00:00:22] And in this episode, Danny and I talk about what as a brand you should be thinking about when it comes to kicking off a production. So we get into what should you be earmarking for budget? How should you be planning it? How should you be doing the bid process? What should you be thinking about it when you’re collaborating with a production partner?

[00:00:43] All of these things to get the best results. Also, when are you ready as a brand to take on more of a commercial level production? So I think this episode is really, really valuable for any brand that’s looking to level up their content game or build out a content library and [00:01:00] to understand what it takes to do that, and then how to properly prep for it.

[00:01:04] So, join me in welcoming Danny for a killer episode. The guy really knows his stuff.

[00:01:09]
[00:01:16] CJ: So tell me about toil. I just, I looked at the site, looked at the, the Instagram looks, it looks sick, what you guys are doing

[00:01:23] Danny Owens: Yeah.

[00:01:24] CJ: it looks like it. Um, Andrew mentioned. It was kind of a new venture for you and like, what’s, what’s going on? How’s it going?

[00:01:31] Danny Owens: Yeah, I mean, it’s been around for I think, almost two years now. Um, I have been

[00:01:35] CJ: that, not

[00:01:36] Danny Owens: not, not that new. No. Um, but I’ve, I’ve been a, uh, like a producer. For almost a decade now. Um, I started out in-house at, uh, urban Outfitters and Squarespace and worked, have worked for agencies, worked for other production companies, freelance.

[00:01:53] Um, and around like two years ago, I got laid off from my last job, [00:02:00] turned 30, and found out that my wife was pregnant with her first, um, baby in like one month. And so. I think it kind of like kicked us off into figuring out like what we were doing in our lives, like individually as like partners, but also, um, in my own career.

[00:02:16] And that’s where. I like kind of chatted with some of my like, close friends who were like in the design field and we, um, kind of like collaborated on this, uh, studio, like creative studio. Um, and I lead like the production side of it and there’s a design side of it that, um, my friend and partner Alejandro Rodriguez leads.

[00:02:34] Um, but yeah, I mean, toil on my end is really about content production. Whether that’s from stills to motion, we do everything from like asset libraries and like, you know, prop the life shoots for products to full on commercial spots and directed, um, campaigns. So a lot like a scale of like small budgets to large budgets.

[00:02:58] But yeah, now I’m, [00:03:00] I’m kind of like more in this like executive producer role where I am. Managing everything and organizing everything and making sure everything like flows, but in a place where I’m like, you know, assigning projects to other line producers and bringing on associate producers, um, to kind of grow with us.

[00:03:14] And so it’s kind of gotten like a bigger thing than it started out as. And, and even like this last quarter was our biggest and most, um, you know. I guess like heavily packed quarter we’ve ever had and we’ve, we’ve produced more shoots in the half of this year than we did all of last year. So definitely like growing at like a, a clip, which is like fun and exciting, but also like we’ve figuring out how to like, keep up with that and like find our people to like be a part of the journey has been, has been, uh, a learning experience.

[00:03:45] CJ: Hell yeah, dude. And congrats on the, on the growth. Did the, um, so I don’t even know how it works, uh, uh, to run like a production agency.

[00:03:54] Danny Owens: Yeah.

[00:03:54] CJ: it, you guys kind of have like your core team of like, I imagine like, you know, you’re a seasoned [00:04:00] vet. Your, your co-founders or partners are. then do you just have like kind of this like ever expanding like black book of resources or people that you can tap in, so you’re still kind of like a general contractor and you don’t, you know, they’re not on staff but they’re, you know, a phone call away depending on what the project is.

[00:04:17] Danny Owens: Yeah, I, I, I, exactly. I feel like we actually are very well related to general contractors in like construction because it’s all about like. Who, you know, the people that you have like built a rapport with and like, who, who’s in your phone book that you can call? Um, we, I have just built relationships like with like a few, like really solid like line producers and coordinators and associate producers.

[00:04:39] And they’re kind of like just always in rotation. Um, we have two. Associate producers and production coordinator, you know, hybrid roles that are just like always on and they’re kind of just always a part of every project. And then, like, if it’s like a larger project, we’ll assign it to, you know, a, a line producer who’s freelance.

[00:04:55] It just like joins toil for that project. But we’ve really, you know, intentionally kept. [00:05:00] Coil, very much like low overhead. Like there’s no employees. We don’t have an office. And I think that like for a production, um, studio, that’s actually like really beneficial because you need to go where the production needs to go.

[00:05:11] And I think that like, just saying that like you’re only in LA production company, you’re only New York production company is actually like kind of detrimental because then it tells clients that you’re only able to like do something in that one city. Even like this last couple of months, we we’re, we’re producing a shoot in Portland right now.

[00:05:25] We did one in Dallas, we did one in um, Houston. We’ve shot in Seattle. Um, so it, it, it really like, kind of lends itself to being like very nimble and we can kind of just like ramp up wherever we need to go.

[00:05:37] CJ: What’s like the typical. Projects. I know it. I know it depends and it’s all over the place. ’cause you kind of rattled it off, but like, what would you think, what’s like a typical project for you guys these days?

[00:05:47] Danny Owens: I would say there’s like two pretty standard projects, uh, and scopes. I think one of them is stills forward, and it’s usually like an asset library or like a like. A content shoot for like a [00:06:00] product drop or like a a, a company that’s just like launching. And that’s usually like a, like a one day shoot, whether that’s like in studio or location.

[00:06:07] And we’re kinda like capturing the product in like the essence of their brand. So like today we’re doing a shoot in la. Uh, for a company that does, uh, like photo albums. And so we’re spending a day in like a, in a, like a home location with some talent and kind of capturing like lifestyle, like content, fucking asset library.

[00:06:26] Um, next week we’re shooting for a fashion brand. It’s like a three day shoot and it’s like a much larger shoot. Um, but yeah, it’s a lot of that like content, content library, um, you know, production. And then the other side of it would be. Motion, uh, spots. So like, like thirties, 15 sixes, that kind of stuff.

[00:06:43] Like we just did a, a shoot, um, that was in, uh, it was in, was it Houston Dallas? No, it was in Dallas. And it was with like a, an NFL football player. And we just like, ramped up at this gym and did like a, like a storyboard spot and like we ended up with like, you know, I think like four or five [00:07:00] unique, um, cuts coming out of that.

[00:07:02] But yeah, I would say it’s like comment library and then like, you know, more like. Shorter form, like branded content.

[00:07:11] CJ: Nice. The, uh, I, so I should have back, I should back up like, the purpose of our podcast and like why I’m even doing this is I’m on kind of like this pursuit of, you know, we work with E-com brands, scaling brands, like rapidly growing, know, we have a couple larger brands in, in the roster, but for the most part, we’re going off to these brands that are like under a hundred million, trying to get over a hundred million, like super growth, very entrepreneurial, all that. so kind of the question, the unanswerable question is like, do you get to over a hundred million? And so I’m just talking to anybody and everybody who can help answer parts of that. So this is a lead up to my question. When you work with clients like. What, how, what’s the best client experience for you?

[00:07:58] Like, I feel like this is US agency [00:08:00] guys, kind of selfishly, maybe you could even like vent of like, that don’t have their shit together. or maybe think of like, what’s the best client you worked with and like, what made them the best? Like how can they, how can they be a great client to, to you guys?

[00:08:14] Danny Owens: I think it comes down to though, I mean the best client situations that we have are clients that treat us like an integrated partner and not just like a vendor. Um, that is kind of like one and done. I think that the. The pretty standard agency production relationship is an agency producer comes to a production company and they’re like.

[00:08:35] We’re bidding out this project there. It’s a triple bid. You’re gonna like create on this for free. You’re gonna like bid on it for free. And you’re like, in competition with two other production companies, you have no idea who they are. You don’t know, like if there’s like bias or relationships within those other production companies, you don’t know if the agency is like giving you all the same information.

[00:08:54] And, and so like that always like lends itself to kind of like a weird competitive, almost like [00:09:00] shadowy, uh. Relationship and you’re not necessarily like on this like kind of even playing field where you just like wanna make good work, you’re like being transparent. It becomes very much like. You’re, you know, you’re, you’re, a lot of production companies are trying to like hide like profit margins and make sure they can like, you know, ensure that like, this is like a lucrative project.

[00:09:19] At the same time, the agency is maybe like downplaying the total budget that’s a allotted so that they can make sure that they have their, it becomes like this whole like kind of like. Scenario. The, the client relations that we have that I really value are this like more integrated approach where like they kind of like, and pardon my French, but like they kind of like get rid of all the bullshit and they’re just like, Hey, we’re like here to like do a project.

[00:09:41] We know you have the experience. We like how you work. We like your like kind of portfolio. Let’s have conversations. Let’s do this together. The way that like toil has been structured is that because I came from being in-house at brands, I like have worked at agencies. I’m like used to like just being integrated with like the creatives and even like the clients [00:10:00] sometimes.

[00:10:00] Um, and so those relationships tend to be a little bit more like fruitful because we cut out all that like. I don’t know, like, like back and forth, like trying to get to the start of the project and we’re just actually like working on it together and, and even being a part of like the creative dev, like when I think that the best in the situations for us is when we are able to like work alongside the creatives while they’re thinking through the idea so that we can say, well, this is how much money you have.

[00:10:24] This is what you can do. That idea is way outta scope. We shouldn’t even like be moving forward that this idea is too simple. We could probably like plus it up. Um, and I think it just comes, it, it takes a kind of client who’s willing to be hyper transparent and like, like collaborative. Um, and, and we typically find that with like direct to brand clients.

[00:10:45] So I think that when it’s like a client. Agency and production relationship, that doesn’t tend to happen because there is like that middleman mentality. Um, and so I would say like some of our best clients have been just like direct to brand. Um, we’ve done like.

[00:10:58] CJ: totally. As the [00:11:00] agents, as an agency guy, the representing the middlemen, like, uh, I totally hear you, and I think it’s. that comes from a place of insecurity, you know, from the agency. ’cause that’s, that’s definitely not our style. Like if we’re bringing in a partner, like one of just a small little thing, like I’m anti-white, white labeling.

[00:11:19] Like, not that we would white label a production partner, but like other agencies or partners. Like, I’m like, I’m not white labeling. ’cause if I always tell the truth, I never have to remember anything, you know? And I think it comes from a place of insecurity, which. In my opinion, it’s probably a symptom of they don’t have a, uh, real, an actual solid relationship with their client.

[00:11:38] So they’re like fearful, you know?

[00:11:41] Danny Owens: Yeah.

[00:11:41] CJ: is hard to get sometimes. It takes years to get to that level of relationship and comfort and vulnerability with a client, you know?

[00:11:47] Danny Owens: Yeah, I mean, I would say like one of our, our consistent clients, we’ve, we work with Heley and Bennett, they’re like a D two C, um, kitchenware brand.

[00:11:56] CJ: the apron,

[00:11:57] Danny Owens: Aprons. They have like, they have uh, [00:12:00] kitchen tools. They have a bunch of, they’re coming up with more products, but I think we’ve done over 10 shoots with them at this point.

[00:12:05] And we’re just kind of their defacto production partner. And it’s because like, I’m literally on Slack with our content director. She can just like slack me whenever like’s coming up. We can plan ahead, like we can go back and forth on shot list before we even locked anything. Um. And to them it’s just like, that’s just, I’m an arm of their company now, another client we have, um, the, with the same thing, like they treat us like an arm of their company.

[00:12:27] And so, you know, it, it doesn’t, it creates that, like, that almost like that friendship where you’re just like a peer, you’re not a vendor. And I think that like really leads to like some good work.

[00:12:38] CJ: Yeah, dude, it’s so, it’s such a simple thing, but like. S actually so rare. I know I’m preaching to the choir. I had, um, somebody else on the podcast, a former mentor of mine, he, uh, I asked him like, what’s the number one advice you would have for clients to get really good work out of their agency partner?

[00:12:56] He did not even hesitate. And he said The [00:13:00] number one thing a client can do is show appreciation. And he goes, because at the end of the day, the, the people on the other side of Slack or the phone or Zoom or whatever are just humans trying to get, you know, do great work. Everybody wants to do great work.

[00:13:13] And so just a little bit of appreciation goes a long way. I’ll just riff on this for a second. So literally this last week we had a client, new head of marketing came in. You know, she’s trying to, she’s trying to put her stamp on things, shake things up, you know, probably posture a little bit. That’s what I would probably do, you know, show the, the new team, you know, what you’re doing and, uh, you know, being a little stern.

[00:13:39] And I had a one-on-one call with her and, uh, just, you know, was able to speak candidly. And I told her exactly that, you know, because she kept, she asked like, what can we do to help you? What can we do to help you guys? And I said. You know, the best thing you can do is show appreciation. You, I, I go, I’m, you know, I’m the CEO you can lay into me.

[00:13:57] That’s fine. I can, I can take [00:14:00] it. But the team is feeling the heat. ’cause the, the client, the brand was really under pressure to get performance and all that. And dude, it’s, so she did, she did that and the very same day. And then since then, and it’s been the last week, it’s been one week. Unbelievable. Like the shift in morale, the output of work from our team.

[00:14:20] ’cause the, and what’s crazy is. I, we even know, I don’t even know if the client’s being fake about it or re or is really genuinely appreciative, but just like the Slack message messages are showing appreciation and hype and stoke and like the team is just flying high and wants to crush it for this client now.

[00:14:40] So I’m like, that’s become like my new, I’m gonna tell every new client of like, Hey, I know this sounds like hand wavy and woo woo. But I promise you this is going to put your agency on steroids.

[00:14:51] Danny Owens: Yeah.

[00:14:51] CJ: just like be appreciative,

[00:14:53] Danny Owens: A hundred percent. I feel, I feel like, uh, I mean, I have pretty thick skin because of just like what I do, but [00:15:00] like production companies tend to like never get the, like, we’re so happy because I think a lot of times like, it’s like the agency and a client is like trying to like hold back to like make sure that like you give them everything you, they need to get and there isn’t that kind of like.

[00:15:13] They don’t want to like let on that, they’re like super stoked all the time. Because then, then obviously it’s like, okay, well then you, you’re, you’re acknowledging the value, you’re acknowledging like kind of like, you know, what you’re getting out of the production. But I always say like, on my sets, and this is something we always like, say in our safety meetings, be in the day, I always say like, Hey, we’re like literally getting paid to like, make pictures and like short films and stuff like on set.

[00:15:36] And we’re getting like paid like pretty well, you know, you could, there’s a lot of like jobs you could do that like are a lot, like more like. Hard and gross and like gnarly. And like, you don’t get paid as well. You don’t get like crafty and like puffy and you. And so I think that like really trying to like reiterate that, like that almost like sense of like, we’re lucky to get to do what we do.

[00:15:57] And it’s like not serious. It’s like sometimes it’s made up to [00:16:00] be, like we say, we’re not, we’re not cur cancer. We’re like making like an ad on TV that like maybe somebody’s gonna pay attention to for like 15 seconds and then it’s gonna be forgotten in like months. I understand the value of like that, that need to like deliver that product.

[00:16:13] But like, I think sometimes, and my wife always says this, like, I think sometimes people, like in the advertising industry need to touch grass like a little bit to like just be like, Hey, like we’re all part of like earth and like we’re all kind of like just trying to like live and, and do you know the best we can.

[00:16:28] So, um, yeah, I think appreciation definitely goes far.

[00:16:31] CJ: ’cause it’s like, it again, it sounds woo woo and hand wavy, but like I, I think. That, that type of energy, that like type, I talk about this all the time. Uh, my wife’s also in marketing as well, and just like, it’s weird. I think we all fall victim to it sometimes, but like you’re at work and like this, like robot corporate thing takes over your personality and you just like, uh, you know, I gotta make this professional or whatever.

[00:16:59] [00:17:00] And it’s just like. I think that in the work and the creative work, people can feel that and or they can feel it when a, when a brand or a team isn’t overthinking it, like don’t overthink it. Just go shoot some cool shit that you think is fun or you think is compelling or interesting or engaging. And don’t overthink it.

[00:17:19] Just publish. And you know, as long as the stakes aren’t crazy high and you’re not a billion dollar brand, I understand you have to be a little bit more calculated there sometimes, but. Yeah. Stop overthinking it. It’s not like we’re not diffusing a nuclear bomb.

[00:17:35] Danny Owens: Yeah.

[00:17:35] CJ: I wanna go back to, the, the bidding process thing. Because like, I think that’s really, really hard. If, like, if you and I put our, like our, if we put our, you know, brains or in, in the, the mind of, of a client who’s trying to hire a production company and you’re saying like, you know, you just want to, from our perspective, [00:18:00] our bi, we want them just to commit, be a partner.

[00:18:02] And I totally agree. That would definitely get the best work out of, you know, my team or your team. Like, but on their side, they don’t know us. it’s risky. Like how, what’s the best way to do it if you’re them? there a better way to do it or do you just have to just like, go with your gut and or can you quickly weed out the other folks and not make all the other production companies like jump through the, the bid and do free work and all that?

[00:18:27] Like how do, how would you do it if you were on the client side?

[00:18:29] Danny Owens: I mean, it’s such a, it’s such a, a question that I like, say, I don’t want, I don’t want this to be this scenario, but I don’t necess necessarily have like the alternative to it. Um, but I do think that like, there is something to say about like, it’s, I mean, sometimes the bidding process can just be like very like.

[00:18:45] Inhumane in like a way that like, maybe this like, sounds like too rough, but like, it, like the humanity gets like removed from it and like, there’s not like a, I I sometimes I don’t feel like we’re digging into the creative or like the creative approach and we’re just kinda like digging into like the process.

[00:18:58] It’s like. Let’s make sure we [00:19:00] get like the bid format and the numbers are matching this, this, this ballpark and like, you know, it’s, it’s kind of structured in that way, but like, we’re not having these kind of like collaborative, like creative, like brainstorm calls. Um, that like, I think would actually help you find your right partner.

[00:19:15] Um, we just did a, a, a spot with this director, Josh Cohen. Um. For a forthcoming spot that comes out in like two weeks for like a Noodle brand. And I actually felt like that was like a really successful bidding process because we were able to like get the creatives talking with Josh like on multiple meetings, like kind of like.

[00:19:35] Hashing things out, like, you know, iterating on the, on, on the creative. And I think that like led it to, to the, a successful award because they actually felt like they were like in partnership with the creative. I think a lot of times like this like pitch, it’s just like, here’s a treatment deck you would get on like one chemistry call with like the director or the photographer.

[00:19:53] And then it’s really just more of like a numbers game with like the, the client or the agency, like picking through the bid. It’s like not [00:20:00] really like a, like a, a, a. A growing evolution of like what you’re trying to do. And that’s why I think what I always would, would love it to be is more like, Hey, here’s not our like version one bit.

[00:20:10] This is like, kind of like our first stab at it. Now let’s like talk about it. Like let’s have like detailed conversations with like bring in the creative. And I think what actually happens a lot of times is that like that’s your last chance and if you, if it, if, if, if it doesn’t like vibe off the bat, you’ve lost your chance and then you never go anywhere else.

[00:20:25] And so I think that’s where I would say like the bidding process gets lost is that you don’t ever have like these like. I mean, at least I think lately with my, my, my business, I’ve, I feel like I haven’t had that opportunity to kind of like work through the kinks. Um, and it’s like a one and done. Like you either get it or you don’t.

[00:20:42] I feel like that is kind of like a negative, but. I don’t know what the solution is. I think that like it’s just more of like the evolution of like agencies and production companies and brands, and I just see the more and more that like brands are like engaging with production companies or agencies in an integrated way, it tends to lead to a longer term [00:21:00] relationship that is less of a like one-off bid and then like go on the next one if it doesn’t work or whatever.

[00:21:05] Um, I just.

[00:21:07] CJ: you know what I’m hearing? ’cause I’m going, obviously I’m pitching new business all the time and it’s like, I’m kind of like hearing. And I, I’m thinking in my head of like, yeah, this is the same, same story on our side in that dance that you do when you’re trying to like kick, you know, get a new client or they’re trying to hire a new agency.

[00:21:24] Like I’m really just hearing like, hey, just be more human and be more collaborative and like, stop with these. You don’t need to be a hard ass negotiator. Like, that’s where I think a lot of prospective clients go around. Like we’re all just trying to like run a business. If the numbers don’t work for us, then they don’t work.

[00:21:44] If they don’t work for you, they don’t work. But it’s like we’re all trying. If if like they like the product that you deliver and they like, and there’s a good chemistry there, then I think the mistake, you nailed it. The mistake that. Clients, I think make prospective clients make us like, [00:22:00] oh, that’s the option they gave us and it doesn’t work.

[00:22:02] Sorry. Next versus what if they came back and like, Hey look, we really like you, we really like this. The numbers just aren’t working. Like how can, can maybe we can steer the treatment in a different way to do it a little scrappier. Like, would you guys be open to that? Like more collaboration to try to like get to a partnership?

[00:22:20] Like the goal is partnership. Not the goal is do the same thing for less money or

[00:22:26] Danny Owens: Yeah.

[00:22:26] CJ: like.

[00:22:27] Danny Owens: And I think that, that, that’s, we have an example we just we’re working with, um, this agency hyphenated for the second time on a shoot for the same client. And like originally when they came to me like. The, the budget and the scope like didn’t really like align. Like it was like the scope was here and the budget was here, and, and so I sent them the, the, the, the budget that was like here to match and it obviously wasn’t like where they needed to be.

[00:22:49] And so, you know, there’s always that concern, like, like I just said, like that’s your one chance and you’ve lost it if you don’t meet it, but. We actually have built a relationship where like, okay, I got on a call with like their, [00:23:00] their, their CCO and we like, were like, how can we make this more approachable?

[00:23:02] Okay, great. Like, let’s not be like a full, like huge production footprint, like locked off video village and we have like this massive crew. Let’s, let’s approach this more of like a run and gun shoot where we’re a little bit more nimble. We’re kind of like jumping in the van from spot to spot. Very tight crew and we can meet you at that, that number.

[00:23:20] It’s just like you aligning with the, the agency, agency aligning with their client and we’re all like communicating. I think that what I see happen a lot, and obviously we’re like a new production company, but I’ve been in the world of production for a while, so I, I feel like I can speak to this, but everyone wants work and I think that there’s like bigger, bigger fish that can like, you know, assume.

[00:23:42] A loss on profit or like no profit to keep getting work and to keep putting work out there. And then there’s people like me, like I have to be able to like, profit on my projects because I don’t have like this like holding company or huge support system behind me to like kind of keep us afloat. And so I can’t like, take a hit on a project really to [00:24:00] like get it.

[00:24:00] And there are people who, uh, you know, companies out there that can’t take a hit and are just, are like, you know, gonna underbid something to just win it. And I think that like. For me, I wish that wouldn’t happen as much, but I think it does like take that humanity out of it. It’s more of like, just like a gobbling up of things.

[00:24:15] So they have like this like massive support system, um, around them versus I’m really trying to like integrate and like collaborate and work very closely with each partner to make sure that like the scope and the budget and the creative all like are in cohesion versus like one of them out being out of whack.

[00:24:32] CJ: Yeah. Yeah. And, but I also think like that’s why there’s always gonna be, you know, scale up agencies and brands and products that are just forging a bullet with the big guy’s name on it. ’cause it’s like. you’re gonna have to make your profit to, you know, put food on the table for your family, but at the same time, you’re gonna work your ass off and you’re not, like, the client’s not plugging into a big machine just kind cranks and maybe has an, an ego.

[00:24:59] You know, I don’t know if [00:25:00] you’ve, I’ve worked with many agencies. The big, the big agencies, the Omnicom Agency of the world. It’s like, God, you can’t fit the egos through the door. and so I think that scrappiness and just like. You know, hunger. That’s why there’s always gonna be a, a small agency that shakes it, shakes it up.

[00:25:16] Danny Owens: Yeah.

[00:25:16] CJ: do something different.

[00:25:17] Danny Owens: I like being that small, that small agency or that small studio, because I feel, I feel like I can always make sure that like I’m signing off on everything that, that we do. You know, it’s like, I remember the first time when I was an actual, like, producer at a, at Squarespace, whoever, like one of the largest like production companies in the, in the world.

[00:25:32] And I remember me being naive, like talking to like the MD or the HOP or whatever at the start that was supposed to be working with. And like every step along the way, it’d be like a new person was involved and I was like, oh, there’s like. Seven people that like this is now trickled down to, um, and with Toro, like we all

[00:25:48] CJ: trying to like put their stamp on it

[00:25:49] Danny Owens: uhhuh.

[00:25:49] CJ: like justify why they have a job there.

[00:25:52] Danny Owens: Yeah. And that, and that’s why with Toro is like, man, we never wanna get to the extreme of a size. We’re like, I don’t even know what’s going on anymore. Like, I’m always [00:26:00] like, want to make sure that like we’re in touch. So I know what’s happening. I’m not micromanaging all my producers, but like, we’re all like in communication and if a client like wants to talk to me, they can.

[00:26:09] CJ: Yeah. So how about like after okay, project kicks off. Uh, what are some other like, huge mistakes or maybe just even think specifically where things have gone completely sideways on you guys and like, why I’m looking for like pitfalls and things that, you know, either an agency can avoid or whoever you’re working with or a client can.

[00:26:28] Danny Owens: I wish I had like disasters to share. I don’t, I, I feel like we’ve, I’ve always had pretty, uh, successful. I mean, the only time I ever had like a, a shoot that like went hay was like during COVID and like during lockdowns and stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, luckily like. I think maybe this is like an answer, but I, I think that just having like 100% like clear communication expectations, process, timeline, like locked in before you even like move forward is how you ensure successful shoe.

[00:26:58] I think that like when I was on [00:27:00] the, the other end of the coin, I’m working with vendors. There are some vendors I noticed who were like, I’d be like a week into the product. I was like, I don’t even know what the timeline is anymore. I don’t even know like what the next steps are. And I think that like. I learned from those lessons of being now the, uh, the company like always providing the agency with like, what’s the next step?

[00:27:19] What’s coming up? What are the, like yeses or nos of like how the scope can change? Um, wait, I don’t have like crazy stories of disaster to share, unfortunately.

[00:27:30] CJ: Yeah. I mean, and then maybe it’s even like annoyances, but I think it’s just in our world, I always talk about like. Like, we have like this pyramid of, uh, account management or strategy and like the, there’s four levels. The bottom of the pyramid is timing and clarity. It’s like the foundation of everything.

[00:27:45] Like are people really clear on what the deliverables and expectations are and as, does everybody know the timing on that? And if you’re not, if our team is not hitting that, the whole pyramid crumbles down. And there’s other layers that I won’t bore you with, but like, [00:28:00] that’s everything. And I think like for a production. At least in my experience, which is, you know, limited compared to yours. But it’s like, it’s not rocket science, but it is just like so much organization and planning and then like the way I was taught, like on a shoot day, I don’t know if you agree or disagree, but it’s like you want it packed that and so planned that there’s really like not a, you’re not taking a minute to have to think about it.

[00:28:30] You’re onto like the next item on the shot list or whatever, and. You’re, you have it in priority order, so it’s like, you know, we’re probably not gonna get to it all, but the stuff on the bottom of the list, that’s a nice to have anyway. But don’t know. How do you guys run? Does that jive with how you guys run shoots?

[00:28:46] Or how does it

[00:28:48] Danny Owens: Yeah. And the one thing I was gonna say when you said about timing and clarity, I think that like the one surprise that I would say that, like, I am always surprised that like there’s been so many times of an agency where they don’t have a deliverables list locked, like [00:29:00] at the start of the project. And that always blows my mind.

[00:29:02] ’cause I’m, I just feel like that it’s like kind of that bottom layer of the pyramid or the, or the rung and the ladder where like just having a deliverables list where we know what we’re delivering from the very beginning, just like. Cuts out so much ambiguity and like so many like misconnections down the line.

[00:29:18] Um, but yeah, I’m,

[00:29:20] CJ: what? So when they don’t have that, like what, wait, how? How are they even hiring you? What is the project?

[00:29:25] Danny Owens: mean, it we’re, we, we roll with the punches on those and we, uh, kind of like make it, we kind of assume what we’re doing and we like build the creative alongside them. But, uh, there’s been plenty of times where we like, we’re like kicking off posts and I’m always like. Do you have that deliverables list ready that we’re like, you know, gonna be using and, and they had, it’s like a scramble to get it.

[00:29:43] But, uh, yeah, that, that’s the one surprise I would say that like, happens more, more often than not, where that’s like a, a, you know, a, a second thought. Um, but as far as like the way we run things, I think that like the, the one, I guess like aspect of our shoots that like, [00:30:00] I think maybe sets us apart from some.

[00:30:03] I guess like kind of more small, like smaller scale productions at, is that like, no matter if like the, the shoot is like a a 30 k shoot to like a 500 k shoot, like, we always make sure that like, it’s approached like a, like a, like a film, like it, it’s, it’s, we have a very, very clear schedule. We have like a very clear shot list.

[00:30:21] We usually will bring on a first ad, even for still shoots, um, which is like not always common, but I think having that individual, um, to like really like drive the day is very important and especially for like new clients, smaller like D two C brands who are not really used to like commercial production.

[00:30:39] I think that always like. Takes them by surprise that like there’s such a, like a, almost like a drill sergeant on set, like making sure that like we’re hitting our shot list, that like the departments like know what’s going on. Um, and we’re like making our day. Um, because I think a lot of times like, you know, brands that have just been like scrappy and doing it themselves, they’re very much just use of setting their own team and like doing a shoe [00:31:00] and like, kinda like figuring it out as I go on the day.

[00:31:02] When you’re on a production with us, it’s very much like there’s always gonna be a PPM. There’s gonna be pre, pre ppms, there’s like a production deck. We have like a, a very like structural, um, templatized approach nowadays where it goes from, you know, the early creative dev to like a very, very locked off, um, pre-pro meeting before the, the shoot.

[00:31:21] Even if it’s like, like today, like the shoe that we’re doing is. It’s not a large scale shoot. It’s a small still shoot. But like I think we had, we had our PPM yesterday and it was like every item that was gonna be there from wardrobe to talent to hair and makeup to location to the shot list of the schedule is like reiterated multiple times to ensure that like when the client gets on set, there’s not like any questions like they know exactly like what.

[00:31:43] Call time to wrap is gonna look like, um, so that like they feel supported, they feel like we put in all the forethought for them so that they can kind of like, at that point sit back and just like answer like creative feedback and, and, and kind of work through any problem solving on set.

[00:31:59] CJ: [00:32:00] Yeah. Yeah. Do you typically recommend that clients are on set, or are they typically on set with you guys or on

[00:32:07] Danny Owens: Yeah, I think we’re. All the time clients were on set. I mean, the only times that like that became not normal was, uh, during COVID when there was like the remote production, um, push. But yeah, I think that, I mean for us, like every time we shoot, we want the client on set. It’s more of like, it’s even like a, uh, like a liability of the, the production and like if, if they’re not there, like I don’t want to answer for those decision making for the brand that is paying for the shoot.

[00:32:32] So yeah. Always ensure the clients are there.

[00:32:34] CJ: Or be forced to do a pickup

[00:32:36] Danny Owens: Yeah,

[00:32:36] CJ: reshoot

[00:32:37] Danny Owens: exactly.

[00:32:38] CJ: So typical projects for you guys? Um, or, you know, I don’t want to ask you to like, talk about pricing too much. I what I, my real question is like, let’s say we have a scale up brand. What advice do you have to them for like planning a shoot? How much budget to allocate?

[00:32:56] I know the answer is, it depends wildly, but [00:33:00] like, can you just talk about. What are your thoughts on budget like planning for budget? Planning for timing too? Like just planning, shoot. Let’s say we have a Black Friday campaign that we’re gonna do, so Black Friday, you know, mid-November is gonna launch. What starts going through your head of like, okay, what do you gotta start thinking about as a brand?

[00:33:18] Danny Owens: Yeah, I mean on the production front, a lot of times, like we’re just kind of coming into the point where creative is, is locked. I mean, not all the time we’re integrated in the creative Dev obviously love being it. Integrated at that point. But a lot of times it’s like they have a creative brief, they have a shot list that they’ve already worked through, and they’re coming to a production company to like execute on that.

[00:33:34] We need minimum two weeks pre-pro. Like I, I really try to avoid anything under two weeks of pre-pro because it just becomes like nonsense and gets really hairy. Um, ideally like three weeks if we can. Um, but

[00:33:48] CJ: And, and Danny too. Just for like people listening like, what is pre-pro?

[00:33:52] Danny Owens: Oh,

[00:33:53] CJ: that down?

[00:33:53] Danny Owens: pre-pro, pre-production. So like that’s everything that’s happening from the kickoff to the shoot. Whether that’s [00:34:00] talent search, location search, uh, prop styling poles, wardrobe styling poles, um, like camera prep, all that kind of stuff. Just anything that like, needs to be like planned prior to arriving on set.

[00:34:12] That’s even like booking crew, like permitting, like all that, like contracts, all that stuff. Um, and so that’s why.

[00:34:19] CJ: it’s important to talk about that ’cause it’s like, I don’t think many people who have not been through a production, which is a lot of people on brand side, like understand the crazy amount of work that has to go in pre-pro and the fact that you’re only asking for two weeks. I. Most clients, I can’t, that would be insane to, if they had to do that.

[00:34:41] Danny Owens: And I will say like, it depends on the client because like we can do it in two weeks if like, it’s a very like integrated, like they’re responding in like a couple hours every time we have a question kind of thing. Obviously that’s not the case and it goes up like five different levels of approval for every single thing that we need to do.

[00:34:56] You’re gonna need more time. Um, but I, I think it’s, I [00:35:00] mean, I, I agree it is a crazy industry and a crazy job because you’re literally like building like a, especially if it’s on location, you’re building like a mobile, like city, like every, like on the production. And this is like boring details for both.

[00:35:12] But like, we’re thinking about like, where do people go to the bathroom? Like, you know, like where, like how are people getting fed? Like is there, like, is there electricity? Like we’ve been on location where we have to have like snake wranglers to make sure that like rattle snakes are not crawling onto set.

[00:35:24] Like, you know what I mean? Like everything that, like you have, like that you can imagine around like a popup location is like thought through. Um, and I think that like, as far as like what I would advise to clients, like thinking before production, is that like. There’s a lot of like, costs to doing production.

[00:35:43] Well, and there’s like, there’s like levers that you can pull that like, you can maybe like not pull if you don’t have the money for. Um, a lot of times like our clients will, uh, cast, like, do like a casting call, like with like their real customers or like internal teams that they can’t [00:36:00] afford, like talent.

[00:36:00] Like that’s like a, a, a pretty like common place where like cost is saved or, uh, you know, if, if, if there’s like. Wardrobe styling is like something like outta scope for them. Like we’ll give a brief to like the talent to like bring from their own closets. Those are like the smaller scale shoots that we’re trying to make work for the client.

[00:36:20] And like those are like small levers that you could do. But I, I will say, and like I don’t mind talking about money. I think that like, we’re at a place now where I kind of don’t say yes to shoots that are gonna be under 30 K because I think 30 K is like the bare minimum to like make a production, um, happen.

[00:36:36] And that’s like a stills like shoot usually. Um, and I think that like clients aren’t necessarily aware of numbers a lot of times. Like when they, when they come to me, like I’ll, I think I had, uh, someone reached out the other day that was like, we have like 5K to do like a shoot. And I was like, that will pay for your location.

[00:36:51] And that’s about it. Um, and so I think just like being like realistic when you’re ready to do a production and like actually like understanding like what it would take, [00:37:00] um, to like initiate that is important. And I never wanna like, feel like. We’re like too good or like too big for to do something, but there’s just like a baseline at this point, um, to do something well.

[00:37:11] CJ: Yeah. As a fellow agency owner, you know, your, your prices and your craft, I think both increase over time. Like, you know, when we started, we’re much more affordable. But I look back at our work, you know, at the time. Great. But I look back at it now, five years ago, so we’re, we’ve only been going for about five years and like our first year stuff I’m like.

[00:37:30] Ugh. Like, and you know, now our minimums are a lot higher. Same deal. ’cause it’s like you just can’t, we can’t deliver the quality that I know clients want at those costs. You just can’t do it. And,

[00:37:43] Danny Owens: Yeah.

[00:37:43] CJ: it’s not as interesting and fun for us.

[00:37:46] Danny Owens: Yeah.

[00:37:46] CJ: that too.

[00:37:47] Danny Owens: Transparently, like I just like wanna also make sure like the right people are like on set, do their, do their job like correctly. I mean, we’ve had clients that have asked like, do you need a photo assistant and tech to like get the photos done? I was like, well you do need somebody to like [00:38:00] manage like the, the monitors and receiving the images and the data and all that and you need somebody to like be assisting the photographer, like lighting.

[00:38:06] So like, yes, you do need these crew members. And so like, I think that like if a client is ever in that position where they’re like. They’re like nitpicking every single like member of the crew on set and like trying to like, evaluate their value. It’s just like that’s, you’re not at the stage. I think that you’re ready for commercial production.

[00:38:22] Um, but we also, we wanna be flexible. We wanna be able to like, make things happen and we try, but I think there is just like a baseline of like, of resource that you need to pull something off.

[00:38:31] CJ: Yeah. Yeah. And we see that too, like red flags of like, if you’re trying to nickel and dime and like in, in some cases in our world, like. You know, we’ll scope something out. So we, we make, we make a lot of ads. So we turn the ingredients that you guys might create, we call those in like ingredients, raw footage, stills and all that.

[00:38:47] We turn that into the performance marketing. So it’s like, uh, but you know, for I’m talking to a prospective client and they’re starting to like, take our fee and divide it by how many ads we’re gonna create. I’m like, I think you’re [00:39:00] looking at it wrong.

[00:39:00] Danny Owens: Yeah.

[00:39:01] CJ: is a strategic collaboration and it’s not just a we’re, we’re not just a factory of ads. you don’t want that. I just, you gotta trust me. You don’t want that like.

[00:39:12] Danny Owens: Well, I think it also, like, you don’t wanna be like, like you’re saying, like you don’t, there’s like one I the whole like, idea of like quantifying, like a per image rate or like a per spot, like cost. It’s just, it doesn’t make sense because it doesn’t, it’s never gonna be equated the same way every shoot.

[00:39:26] But, uh, the only I would say is like, you never wanna be on a bad. As a client, like if you get to that point where you’re nickel and dimming every single member of the crew on set, or if you’re like, you know, you’re really trying to be tooth scrappy, you’re never gonna get the quality of assets or even like the quantity of assets because there’s not enough.

[00:39:44] Bodies on set to make sure it’s happening in a smooth way. Um, and also you don’t wanna be on like a crazy, like stressful set. It just like never is gonna lead to the best work. I think that like, morale on set is something that, that people don’t talk about because a lot of times, like the focus is on profit and [00:40:00] it’s on kind of like the, the bottom line.

[00:40:02] And it’s not about like the, the creativity that’s happening on set. I think that like. If you have a stress out set or a stress opt photographer or a stress out director, you’re probably not gonna get the same level of like, problem solving or like creative juice per se, that you would on a, on a, on a well route run, like high route, uh, production.

[00:40:18] CJ: you know, it’d be cool pro, pro tip for like the, uh, robot note taker, like his, uh. You know, if you’re planning a shoot with a production company and you’re a client, maybe take a moment some, at, somewhere in that process to just like, Hey, are are, is the team gonna be happy with this scope and the fee and all that?

[00:40:37] And are, and will vibes be high? And like, because again, going back might be hand wavy, but like having the team stoked on shoot day and even during, pre and post, like, that’s gonna show up in the work, I think. And so like, maybe if. The answer is no. We’re running. We’re basically taking a loss on this, and like the team is super stressed and [00:41:00] maybe you talk about how can we make this scrappier?

[00:41:02] How can we make this a win-win? So everybody’s stoked and then maybe you get can do something different or better the next shoot or something like that. The chance that a client’s ever gonna do that, probably zero, but. You know, we can wish. Yeah. Yeah. So the, for 30 k, can you give me like an example of what, I know you said it’s a covers a still shoot.

[00:41:24] Like what would be, you know, a range of what the output for something like that would be?

[00:41:29] CJ here coming to you from the editing room with a quick disclaimer.

[00:41:33] Danny was kind enough to go into some prices and scopes of work here. Don’t hold the guy to it. Consider it for. Educational purposes only costs. Prices change all the time. And he doesn’t even have a project that he has in mind that he’s talking about here. So I think we should just all consider this, you know, what is it?

[00:41:54] What is the baseline that is required to do a commercial level shoot, whether you’re working with [00:42:00] Danny or another agency or anything like that. So thank you, Danny, for going into this. Now, back to the show.

[00:42:06] Danny Owens: Yeah. I mean, I think that like, it, it is hard to to to align on that. Exactly. ’cause every like brief is gonna be different. But I think that like in general, you’re gonna be coming out with like a. An asset library with like some variance, like, you know, if it’s on location, you maybe have like three to four different setups that like, are styled differently to like, you know, have maybe an exterior location, maybe an interior location, maybe you have some tabletops and flat lay.

[00:42:30] Um, for us it’s like, again, like I don’t want to like be like on record that like we can do every shoot for 30 K and we, uh, this is exactly what we deliver. But um,

[00:42:39] CJ: Because if you say that, then somebody’s like, we need a live elephant

[00:42:42] Danny Owens: yes, we’ve gone.

[00:42:43] CJ: have to have that.

[00:42:44] Danny Owens: We have gone bears on set before. That was fun. Um, but, uh, but yeah, I mean, I think that like an outcome of that is like a pretty decent like, asset library that like a brand can use. Um, or you know, if it’s a specific like for a product shoot or if it’s for a lifestyle shoot or whatever, I think that like, [00:43:00] that can deliver a pretty decently high quality asset library for, for the brand.

[00:43:05] Whether that’s for a quarter use for a year, I don’t know. It depends on like what they, um, go into that with. Um, I would say like that’s.

[00:43:12] CJ: that, when you say asset library, sorry to harp on this, are we talking you know, dozens of images? Hundreds of images? Like, and I know it depends, I’m just like, depends if you have some wild set styling and all that. But if it’s like a pretty basic like, you know, single location, all that, is it a hundred images?

[00:43:31] I just have no clue.

[00:43:32] Danny Owens: I mean, I think it’s like, it depends on the shots. Like I think that’s, that’s where we would get into semantics about it because like it depends on how many shots they’re doing it and how many like. Image you get out of like one setup. If it’s like, for instance, it’s the prop style shoot and each shot is like a very hyper planned like product image.

[00:43:48] It’s like styles for that. That’s like a per shot one image kind of thing. So lifestyle shoot where you’re like, you have like some talent in like a location and they’re like more like just like vibing and you’re kind of capturing like a, a, [00:44:00] a. An environmental approach, you get like dozens out of that because every like, shot is maybe a different angle or a different, like, you know, uh, little bit of a different scenario.

[00:44:09] Um, but I, it’s hard, it’s really hard to quantify and I wouldn’t wanna like put that on record, but I.

[00:44:14] CJ: No, I, uh, save, I’m, I’m, I’m just trying to understand it too. And as soon as you say that, like, you know, if it’s some in-depth thing that you have to do crazy styling and set up and you’re hanging things from, like wires and all that, like obviously it’s, it really just comes down to, as I’m thinking out loud, it’s like comes down to like time. It’s like we have a day. It’s gonna take two hours, three hours just to set up this one scene like, so it’s really comes down to hours, not,

[00:44:39] Danny Owens: Yeah,

[00:44:40] CJ: of times we press the shutter button.

[00:44:41] Danny Owens: a hundred percent. I think that’s like, I think that’s something to really like important to clarify too, is that sometimes clients go into shoots being like, we want the photographer take. 200 images and we wanna access all those images. Well, not every single image, it’s gonna be like worthy of your, your, your, your brand.

[00:44:55] Like I, I, it’s like we’re, we’re getting to the point where you get that, that select on [00:45:00] set, you get the one that like, looks really good. And I think that like, the way to really think about it is like it’s a day of shooting. How can we use that day to our best advantage? A lot of times, like the way we, we even expand, um, deliverables and value is that we bring on a videographer and be like, kind of shadow shooting with a photographer.

[00:45:16] And that’s like a really, uh, pretty economical, um, addition that like, now you’re gonna have a drive of like video footage after the day to like use when you, you know, to compliment these, these stills. Um, but yeah, I think that’s like.

[00:45:28] CJ: interesting. So you guys are typically thinking stills first, video second, and just. of your personal experience and or, I feel like that’s kinda, I don’t know if it’s uncommon, but I’m different in my, my experience, but

[00:45:42] Danny Owens: Yeah, I mean I think like every still shoot we’re on now, we’re getting asked to like also deliver motion assets in some form or the other. And so a lot of times like. I think that maybe it’s just the way that like creatives think, they think like a still first in a lot, a lot of my experience. And then the, the video is [00:46:00] like an add-on because a lot of times, like if you’re thinking about motion, video, whatever you wanna call it, you’re typically thinking about like a spot.

[00:46:07] You’re not thinking about like an asset library. And so I think that like when people are going into like an asset library shoot, they’re thinking about like the stills and then it’s an easy add-on to be like, okay, well this videographer’s gonna like kinda like shoot over the shoulder. Um, and a lot of times photographers can.

[00:46:21] Work with continuous light that like allows, uh, a videographer to kind of be shooting the entire time. Um, obviously, you know, sometimes you need strobe and you can’t work with continuous light, but it, it’s, it’s a, it feels like it’s a, a more common workflow, at least for us. So like, have a photographer lead add, like a pretty economical videographer onto that shoe end up with like some footage.

[00:46:42] It’s not like hyper directed. It’s not like hyper storyboarded, it’s more like pickup shots. Um, but yeah.

[00:46:49] CJ: No, I like that. I, my, my pro tip for everybody who’s like, planning a, a shoot, what I’ve heard most often is, you know, you’re partnering with a video team who thinks like [00:47:00] video first, and then I’ve heard this a million times. Oh, we don’t need a separate photographer. We can just grab frames. ’cause we’re shooting in four or eight K I’ve just never had success with that at the end of the pro.

[00:47:12] Never, never, never, never, never. And I’m just like, shell out the money to have a separate photographer like. Floating around, spraying it down. Like don’t, I don’t care what any videographer tells you, in my opinion is my opinion. Don’t, don’t plan on frame grabs being the thing you’re gonna be able to use for your

[00:47:31] Danny Owens: I feel like we’ve had that ask a few times. I’m like, well, you’re not, it’s not gonna be what you think it is. It’s like you’re, there’s always gonna be some motion blur in there. It’s never gonna be exactly what you want. Um, yeah, totally. I.

[00:47:42] CJ: Yeah. Yeah. What’s, uh, uh, I wanna be respectful of your time and thank you so much, Danny, for, uh, for joining and, and chatting all the time. What’s, what’s your favorite stuff to work on personally,

[00:47:54] Danny Owens: I love stuff that like has like some sort of a like story or like real person to it. I think when I [00:48:00] first started in production at Squarespace, most of the work that I did was these kinda like mini docus of like real, real customers. Like we did, like we would go to like a pottery studio to like somebody who did like.

[00:48:12] Small back tomorrow to like, just like all these like niche kind of like creatives. And it’s something I did at, uh, urban Outfitters. I was like the onset like. Photographer on, on site, like photographer, I would go like photograph the, like woodworker that did all the Urban Outfitters displays where I would just, I would like photograph the, uh, the dyer for free people and like all the different like d swatches that she, she did on, on, on campus.

[00:48:36] So I’ve always been a attracted to kinda like the storytelling of like craftsmanship or like passion. And so even like the recent spot that we just did, um. For, uh, this, uh, athletic brand that was with an NFL. Um, running back it was like really cool to like be like kind of showcasing somebody’s like, real like story.

[00:48:55] Um, that’s like something I, I feel like is [00:49:00] seen less and less in like, advertising these days. Like the branded content, like mini docu stuff doesn’t really get come across my table as much or across my desk. Um, but like, yeah, anytime that we can kind of like. Craft narrative alongside like a commercial brand is, is nice.

[00:49:20] Um, I just like things that like are like a bigger, just like a bigger, uh, creative approach than just like a stylized tabletop shoot or something, you know what I mean? Like.

[00:49:31] CJ: made me think of that? What’s so interesting about that in hearing you like thinking of it from like a photographer’s perspective is like storytelling with photography versus storytelling with video. I think like. about storytelling with videos almost like a pitfall. It almost makes it feel like it’s too easy.

[00:49:48] Oh, we’re just gonna capture this. This guy walking around doing his craft and blah, blah, blah, blah. what’s way harder and more artistic? Is like, how do I tell this guy’s story in a single [00:50:00] photo or a couple photos? Like that’s really like, it gives me like chills. I was at an agency in San Diego in a past life.

[00:50:07] I wasn’t on this account, but you know, saw it unfold. But we had the wild Turkey. and we did some really beautiful photography with Jimmy Russell, their master distiller. And just like you’re trying to pack this guy’s entire life and legacy into some like beautiful portraits work and like that.

[00:50:24] Like, like that’s what your story kinda reminds me of. Like how do you, where do you put ’em? How do you light ’em? And then like. Thinking through like what’s the whole ad? And we were fortunate that we were doing print ad, which is just so like an advertiser’s dream. Print advertising is so awesome. I mean,

[00:50:39] Danny Owens: That and like out of home. I love Outof home, like I just love seeing stuff out in the wild.

[00:50:45] CJ: Yeah. Yeah. So I, but I would love, like that’s almost cool to think about photography first, storytelling through photography because you could, if you could crack that, I bet you, you know, the storytelling in the video can [00:51:00] become either easier or just more, I don’t know, more soul to it. I know it just sounds so. Hand wavy again, but like there’s something there that I feel like you do the hard part first, then the video can follow. That’s kind of cool when riffing on that,

[00:51:15] Danny Owens: No, I agree. I think that like anytime you can kind of like pack something more into a photo or a still image and make somebody feel something and, and that’s like the whole advertiser’s dream. Making somebody like feel somebody to like go buy something. Like that’s like the whole, the, the pipeline. But I think that’s, it’s just really cool when you, there’s always that feeling.

[00:51:32] I, when I was a photographer, you would feel it. When you took a shot and you just like, felt like that’s it. Like it clicks and like, that’s always like kind of our goal. Like when like we like produce something, we want it to like, feel like there’s like something like more to it that like there was like value and quality in that.

[00:51:47] Even if it’s just a photo of like a product that, you know, the, the client is trying to like sell.

[00:51:53] CJ: You remind me. We, we did a, a couple years ago we did a campaign for peak design. I think we could, it’s still [00:52:00] like kind of alive, but we could bring it back. Maybe we could work on it together someday. But the, um, it was to sell their photography equipment. ’cause they would just make really rad photo gear straps and storage and all that. But the idea was trying to tap into that, that moment that every photographer has, whether you’re an iPhone photographer or a pro, where you, you know, hit that shutter button and you kinda like whisper to yourself. Got it. And so the campaign was called Got It. And the whole plugin to the products is, you know, our, the peak design products just help you be ready at that moment.

[00:52:31] So you never miss a shot, which is, you know, your worst nightmare in some respects. Right. but that could be a cool one of bringing that to life. That could be a fun

[00:52:39] Danny Owens: Yeah. Love that.

[00:52:41] CJ: Dude, last question. I gotta, I gotta ask it. Where’s your head at with ai?

[00:52:48] Danny Owens: Something I talk about all the time.

[00:52:50] CJ: go,

[00:52:50] Danny Owens: Uh,

[00:52:50] CJ: let’s drop some famous last words.

[00:52:52] We can pull this up after the robots take over in a couple years.

[00:52:55] Danny Owens: we just do it. We’ll do it in five minutes. Um, I think that, uh, I [00:53:00] mean we just did a, a whole project with, um. I mean, I, I’m assuming this will come out after this spot comes out, but with Amazon Music and like, we partnered with a, with a VFX company, um, or like a, you know, post company that primarily like, it was like 50% ai.

[00:53:16] So like the, some, some of the, and it was like one of the first times I think that like I strategically worked with AI to produce something. Um, and it. It’s something we would not be able to do. Like, it is not like, I don’t think that, I think that, like for me, I don’t mind AI if it’s not like taking away the creative process or like creative, um, individuals from something.

[00:53:40] But it’s like more so like leveraging it in a way that like is creating something new or a new way of doing something. I don’t personally think that every single production, every single shoot is gonna become an ai. I just don’t see that happening because even what we were just talking about, like [00:54:00] that spot we sit with a football player, AI can’t do that.

[00:54:02] Like that’s a real person that we’re like capturing in motion and you know, telling that story for, um. I think AI is really crucial as a, an assistant and as a like resource. Um, I mean we, I use chat GBT all the time to like make my emails to make sure, like I’m like checking myself when, when clients, um, we use it to help us, like put together schedules and um, check our like documents and all that kind stuff.

[00:54:31] So like, you know, I think there’s a huge resource in ai. Um, I am personally interested. This stage and like becoming an AI production company. Like I, that’s where the world goes and like, everything is like very, like, I’m probably gonna like go open a coffee shop or something and do like, be able, like, work with people.

[00:54:50] And I just like, I don’t, I don’t want to like be prompting a, a computer for my career. And, and, and if that means that like, you know, I don’t get to like [00:55:00] work in production for the next like 20 years. Things have off and things change and I’d probably be fine with that, but I think that like the way I see it happening is more of a resource and a tool that like people who can figure out how to use it to, to implement the work, um, will prosper.

[00:55:15] CJ: Yeah. Yeah, same page. Um, um, not anti ai the way. That our agency is looking at is like we just need to, need to obviously stay on top of it, understand what it can do, it as a performance enhancing drug for the stuff we’re already doing. But the ideas Reign Supreme. They have to come first and then it’s like, oh, if we’re using AI to help bring that together, great. it’s not replacing things. And then it’s like. you know, I think you nailed it there. There’s, we’re gonna have prob my opinion is like, it’s, we’re gonna hit this point where we all still seek human interaction too. You know, there’s that, it’s like, you’re like, I’m gonna go open a coffee shop. ’cause it’s just like. Fuck that noise. Like I don’t wanna just hunch over my computer [00:56:00] the whole time, you know, my whole life. What’s, what kind of life is that? So I think people will probably, there’ll be like a threshold that we’ll hit up against and people will be like, I actually like being with other humans. Like, let’s pray.

[00:56:12] Let’s pray that that happens. Um. Danny, thanks for your time. Um, if, who, where can people find you? Where can they reach out? And then who, who should look for you? What brands should look for you or agencies? Who are your, who’s your ideal, uh, client?

[00:56:27] Danny Owens: Yeah, I mean, you can find us on Instagram at 12 Studio online at Toil Studio. Um, you can reach out to us at production at Toil Studio. Um, the clients that we primarily work with are. I would say like small to, to, to mid, um, sized companies. Um, I mean, we work with the Lululemon and Amazon and all those big ones too, but I think that like a lot of our primary customers, um, or clients are CBG based brands, D two C based brands, um, mostly product based brands, so any, any brands that are creating a product, whether that’s a [00:57:00] physical product like a.

[00:57:01] You know, an apron to a fashion brand, to a food and beverage brand. Anyone who’s like really trying to like, visualize their brand is, is who would, um, be a good fit for us.

[00:57:13] CJ: Awesome, man. Well, thanks for joining me.

[00:57:14] Danny Owens: Yeah. Thanks CJ. Appreciate it.