Why Online Brands Should Think Offline: 3 Retail Moves to Drive Scale with Joy Fan

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[00:00:00] Joy Fan: Retail for brand founders, you have to want to learn. The curiosity matched with the actual percentage that you can actually spend on testing this.

[00:00:11] 10% tested, you are gonna grow And I guarantee you that, because the more you learn, the more you have an ear on what you’re actually creating, what people are picking up on, the more it sort of pauses you and then you create that next product and it’s probably gonna be more fine tuned.

[00:00:28]
[00:00:35] CJ: So if you’re a brand that’s still scratching their head around, how do you expand into retail? This episode’s for you today, we have Joy Fan, who I like to refer to as the retail queen.She seems to know everything and anything about how do you expand into retail. She started multiple businesses that are designed to do exactly that, to help scaling brands go into [00:01:00] retail. And in this episode we talk about how and when does a brand know it’s the right time to add retail or add in-person selling into their business model. So if you’re interested in that, stick around. Joy, Zoe was just saying like, oh my God, she’s a baller and I.

[00:01:21] Joy Fan: What? Oh, you guys, so I’m so excited to meet you too. I mean, like, one first, I, I, I can’t wait for the exchange. CJ obviously you’re working with CJ, so there’s, you know, already magic happening. So, um, thank you guys for inviting me on this. I don’t know, CJ gave you the preface of our connection. I was like, one, the Peak team has been speaking wonder, so it’s like automatically I was like, great, I gotta speak to this guy.

[00:01:48] So, yeah. But tell me about you. Um, so how did you guys, like, was this kind of like, uh, the brainchild of both of you guys? Like what was sort of the, the,[00:02:00]
[00:02:00] CJ: Pod the podcast. Oh, I mean, you want to go ahead, give your side of it.

[00:02:04] Zoë : Um, well I think it started with just like, first of all, we obviously just love chatting, connecting with people, and we always have so many questions in terms like, we wanna learn, we want to grow. We know a lot of people in the space and personally for me, from my perspective, I’m like, this is such a great learning and growing opportunity in terms of I get to speak with industry leaders, brands and just learn about how to scale businesses. Um, so it came about that bad idea for clarity. It’s something we use internally a lot in our agency when we are sort of briefing creative teams and speaking with them. It’s almost like, uh, something you have to beat in terms like bad idea for clarity. And we give them an idea and they come and they have to try and beat that idea. And when we’re, um, creating ads. And I think it just felt like it was so fitting for the title of the podcast. Um, and it definitely all came from CJ and I’m just, I’m here to learn and grow and

[00:02:54] CJ: Oh no.

[00:02:55] Zoë : host.

[00:02:56] CJ: Two kind. Uh, joy, I think we, we joked around when we were thinking about starting the [00:03:00] podcast, like, um, you know, I’ve logged some years under my belt, Zoe’s earlier in her career, right? So there’s this, I sometimes I’m too close to the forest to see the trees and ask, you know, the questions that maybe a lot of people are thinking.

[00:03:15] And like Zoe, just by the number of years, might be asking much better questions than I’ll ask. So this kind of co-host model I think is, is a lot of fun. So that’s our,

[00:03:26] Joy Fan: That’s

[00:03:26] CJ: that’s kind of our aim for it.

[00:03:29] Joy Fan: when we start to say acronyms, it’s like, great, we gotta break that down.

[00:03:33] CJ: Yeah.

[00:03:33] Joy Fan: kind of the same way where I’m learning how, you know, the younger, sort of using new words

[00:03:40] CJ: The youths.

[00:03:40] Joy Fan: it’s, we’re, we’re all, we’re all sort of, everyone’s learning, everyone’s wor learning.

[00:03:44] All,

[00:03:45] CJ: Yeah. And I think, I think in this, in this sport that we call marketing, it’s kinda like it’s, it is a young person’s sport too, and it’s like, uh, and, and it’s always growing and evolving every day, except I, especially with like AI and all that, and I think if you have [00:04:00] ego and you think you know it all, you’ll just be extinct before you know it.

[00:04:04] So like, you have to have no ego. You have to be able to ask the stupid question. Um, yeah. So Joy, I, like I said, we, I’ve already kind of hyped you, but I, I don’t even think that I have the full story. We were just, you know, the endless scroll on your LinkedIn profile as we’re like prepping for this call.

[00:04:25] Could I,

[00:04:25] Joy Fan: also CJ. It’s the years. It’s the

[00:04:28] CJ: uh.

[00:04:28] Zoë : saying to CJ before the call, I was like, geez, you’ve done experiential marketing strategy, brand partnerships, over 17 years experience, and you found the two companies. And I’m like, I need to hear about your journey and your background.

[00:04:42] Joy Fan: yes.

[00:04:43] CJ: Can we, can we put you on the spot to, to give your like life story?

[00:04:49] Joy Fan: Yes, yes. I think thematically you’ll, you’ll see that. And why I think you’ll see characteristically of me, I tend to work with brands who are solving [00:05:00] either their own or a very, very big problem in which they just feel very loyal to. Um, it’s the same as myself. I think. Um, you know, in your young twenties, you, you go into this beastly, I can do anything.

[00:05:12] I can do everything. Um, and I saw a lot of what was restricting to me was a lot of what was happening in the real estate world. pre 20 again. 20 10. Well even date back to 2008. nothing like popups was even a word. I mean, it was actually a, a bad word. People were very resistant to the idea of retail getting broken up. So everything was 10, 20 years, pre 2010. And that was something, again, as young twenties, I was doing physical or I was building out brands and wanting it to test in physical space. It was a. And that dynamic of them saying, great, look, let, let me call up this vacant space. And of course, but at that time you have to walk space.

[00:05:57] This space you saw the big, you know, and that’s [00:06:00] still what’s happening now. And I’ll share with you why we created storefront. Um, but you have to walk space to space. You get on a phone call, there’s, you know, someone who’s like, very, very intense, a little bit rude on the other side, and they’re like, wait, who are you?

[00:06:13] How much credit do you have? What’s, you know, what’s your deal? How much, uh, money do you have? Your bank, bank account? And you’re like, wait, what? I, one, I wanna create a brand. Two, I wanna put it there. And then I started to aggregate a bunch of friends who were also brand founders. and they, we all came together.

[00:06:30] This was all of our side and hustles, by the way. Um, we all had corporate jobs and then our side hustles were building brands. And in the physical retail world, it was such a black box. Um, you, you weren’t able to get into physical retail space without again, signing your arm and a leg. And so that was just a big, huge problem.

[00:06:49] And so we started to do and aggregate these, um, what would back then be you know, sample sales. It could be considered trunk shows, um, and [00:07:00] popups. And so I just brought together friends and we would just do them in cafes, coffee shops or um, cafe coffee shops. We would do them in random art galleries. was just the beginning of it. And I was doing it all over San Francisco, all over New York City. Um, meanwhile just saying, cool, this is like something that hopefully eventually my brand’s gonna keep growing. And so I was growing it via this space. went back to San F. I finished this accelerator and they’re really interested in the real estate space, wanted to know someone who had actually physically done popups. I was like, cool, this is what happens. This is what the needs are, this is why it’s broken. This is sort of the 10, 20 year lease problem. And this is again, um, why I’m speaking to that, that era of 2008, 2010, because you can imagine there was just, you know, real estate, there was a big issue on the, on, on, on in many, in many ways. So you can see that there was a bit of a flat [00:08:00] line and they can see rates were just rising. And so I think at that point it was like something like it, it doubled from four to 8% at that time. that doesn’t speak to then what ended up happening again in 2020. So I’ll kind of give you guys sort of these eras that I was in in 2010.

[00:08:16] I was like, great. Met these guys. They were very, very excited about building something in real estate. I was like, here’s a problem I. Here’s a bunch of brands, and I was just naming hundreds of us who were like, great, we’re just all new brand founders. We want space and this isn’t gonna work. And so we essentially educated a ton of landlords, brokers, especially on what was the demand. And I think that was the first part of it. It wasn’t necessarily even building, you know, the, infrastructure. It was educating the entire space that the demand was there. And so this is also the rise of e-commerce brand. So Shopify was doing its magic. You know, Etsy was doing its magic. Everyone was starting to say, great, it’s easier than ever to build a brand. So that was happening. And in [00:09:00] parallel I was saying, well, we gotta break open what real estate, what’s happening in real estate? Because if you still have 10, 20 year leases, we’re looking for short term, we want a testing ground, same as what was happening in e-commerce. And so that allowed for then in 2012. We built something called Storefront, which is an aggregation, sort of like an MLS for a vacant space. And so it became global in 2016. We, um, had an acquisition, uh, from a Paris company. Um, and it was, it, it was, it was an awesome thing because then I think the most, um, if I, if I date back, I think the most awesome thing was hearing the chatter of popups, um, and hearing the word become something that was restricted.

[00:09:43] Then become the thing that was like the leverage and I. It’s exciting to see that the problem that you have, it might be something small, it might be your own, but if you keep at it and you aggregate the demand, it just creates, and it breaks open the entire [00:10:00] thing. And so there’s much, much, much work to be done.

[00:10:02] I, I, I believe it sort of then enters into my next phase. So in between storefront and then my, the next phase of it, um, I had worked with REITs and the important thing was that there was this whole, uh, narrative about how, you know, uh, shopping malls are dead and retail is dead. And that was kind of like between 2012 and 2018, um, all of those headlines, but at the same time, you know, WeWork was rising.

[00:10:28] And so people had this interest of, well, there’s this whole experiential space and so. Rebrand the space. I think that it’s required for everyone to look at it as we’re still humans walking. I don’t, I think we’re still gonna go from point B. I think we’re gonna always be surrounded by technology in some way. what, what’s that in? We’re, you know, we still have eyes, we still have, [00:11:00] we still have sensory. Um, so I just think that it’s being able to, again, attract those moments in between, we’re not on our phone. And so that’s basically what I shared with REITs and created something called retail as a service. Um, worked with amazing platforms and brands like, um, beta and, um, uh, built out something called Bespoke for Westfield. Did another one, um, for, uh, uh, for a couple of different reads. And so it’s been, it’s, it’s been a, a fun journey. And then I, I’ll kind of. Um, and cap it with in 2020. We all know what happened. Um, and the volatility of what happens when you have retail and the government gets involved with the opens and closures and occupancy rates. know, it’s funny then to understand that if you haven’t built a business, small business on the ground physically and understanding what it takes to actually not only, uh, build a schedule and have people [00:12:00] show up and create incentive structure and culture around that, it was, I. It was wild to really, really dive in and really understand from the small business standpoint, and I’m saying these are like a hundred thousand dollars to a million dollars, you know, in business.

[00:12:13] So these are our coffee shops and retail stores, and a lot of them were just, you know, I was just walking around, there was nothing to do. We, we all remember, it was like

[00:12:22] CJ: Yeah.

[00:12:22] Joy Fan: shuts down I was like, how many of us are impacted? And it just felt like that moment, um, that, that moment that brought me back to that 20 2008 moment where you’re like, that gut wrench, you’re like, there’s things that are hopeful and then everything was shutting down.

[00:12:38] You had, um, I. retail store boarded up. And so, yeah, the text message started coming in and, you know, I, I feel like what was happening was a lot of the brands that I worked with, that I built out, either the physical retail store, their first popup, they were trying to figure out how they’re gonna actually move inventory.

[00:12:57] And so we were just playing a game of, well, [00:13:00] it felt like I was then, um, matchmaker and I was like, well, why don’t you just show up at, you know, XYZs, you know, coffee shop and like see if they can move some product. And that was essentially what happened is we started to, just merge these like, you know, brands and say, great, let, maybe you can do it here. then, um, and then we built a platform around it and started saying, great, if there, these are things that we’re kind of doing again and again, how can we actually scale the backend? And so that’s when retail was born. Um, it was really as a, as a very intimate, like, wow, this feels. Almost too similar. We gotta keep pushing this.

[00:13:41] And even more so, I think when we created, um, popups as a short, uh, term agreement and a license agreement, it was, it was amazing, I think for brands, but also the pricing, the ticket was still very, very high. And so the, the problem that I always heard was that brands were saying, well, I can’t, you know, [00:14:00] like, how do I know?

[00:14:01] How do I commit? And I think that that’s the biggest thing that everyone wants to understand is like, how do I commit? It’s like. You know, buying a massive ring on the first date, essentially, when you are like, great, is the demographic there? Are there gonna be traffic? And so we built retail because it was really based off of test and learn.

[00:14:21] Um, you know, if you are placing your product on a shelf in a cafe, people are walking by it, they pick it up, they smell it, they wanna learn about it. Great. Just start there. And it’s about being able to have the product speak for itself in a conversation surrounding it. So that’s what, uh, retail was based off of is really, really narrowing that price point and getting it completely down to something that would be as simple as you maybe build the product and you wanna test it for the first time, you should be able to do that

[00:14:50] CJ: Yeah, so, so do I have this right? So store storefront is kind of like the big, the, you know, the big brother or the predecessor and where you’re matchmaking, you know, [00:15:00] retailers or up and coming businesses with full spaces for a retail location and or a popup. And then it’s like retail, uh, and for those listing retail.co, right?

[00:15:10] Is that right? Joy?

[00:15:11] Joy Fan: Yes,

[00:15:12] CJ: Um, and it’s like, that’s almost like the mini version where you’re connecting them with just like open shelf space in, in different locations. Is that,

[00:15:21] Joy Fan: space open. Yep. Yep. Um, and then, you know, we took a turn of being able to do, no, now more focus on activations and more day. Um, so again, anyone who’s listening, who’s excited to learn more, learn, absolutely reach out. Um, but yeah, to simplify it, storefront, it’s an open again, um, again, more of an MLS.

[00:15:40] So if anyone’s from New York, they know it’s StreetEasy pretty well, you can look it up and say, great, I wanna be able to be in soho area. What are the different popups that are available?

[00:15:50] CJ: yeah. Kinda looked like a, like a peer space. Peer space for retail too. Like even though you guys probably worked before them.

[00:15:57] Zoë : I, uh, I

[00:15:58] CJ: Uh oh [00:16:00] yeah.

[00:16:01] Zoë : say, I love the dating analogies you’re using of almost like matchmaking online brands with physical spaces, and it’s like.

[00:16:09] Joy Fan: Like that. It

[00:16:11] CJ: joy, I

[00:16:12] Joy Fan: felt like that

[00:16:13] CJ: I wanna go back to something that you said, like, kind of part of the genesis story of like, you know, popups were kind of demonized or, or like a bad word. What, why do you and I, and I don’t understand the popup game at all, like, why do people hate on them? Like, what are the reasons valid or not?

[00:16:30] Like, what are the misconceptions and then why are they a good idea for some brands?

[00:16:35] Joy Fan: I would say so. So it was a bad word, not for consumers, but it was a bad word for the industry. So what, what, um, what, how it was demonized was that landlords, you know, they’re looking at the depreciation of, uh, and the value of their space. And so if you have multiple people painting again and again, you’re just seeing the depreciation go down. The thing is that, you know, real estate was built [00:17:00] upon this idea that people wanted something for longer than 20, 30 years. And we’re just not built that way anymore. The consumer market really let leads what brands get to do. And I think that even five years is kind of like you might enter into one market.

[00:17:16] You might be in, um, you know, downtown Soho area to start, and then you move and shift up to maybe Flatiron because you find that families are maybe, you know, or Tribeca. So I think that the, um. was more, it was a fixed lease because that’s what has been before and the demand is what truly shifted and changed the dynamic entirely. I think the consumers actually were the ones who. Pushed for what needed to happen for the, the retail market. And I, I believe it needs to be pushed further. I think that there’s still the stop gap between what’s happening in real estate, and there’s a lot of, again, there, there isn’t a lot of transparency, uh, whatsoever when it comes to real estate pricing, uh, specifically commercial. And I [00:18:00] think it’s really important for people to see that, you know, this mid-market selection process that happens is sort of, it’s, it’s arbitrary, it’s kind of like why DTC grew so fast is that we wanted to be able to pull and purchase products without someone selecting for us. And so I do think that that’s something that we kind of, if we break it out fully real estate may be more elected based on, again, the neighborhood.

[00:18:25] And I, I, I fully see that happening, you know, in the next five, 10 years. Uh. again, the data gets better, where we’re using actually digital marketing data and, and actually pulling into physical retail. Uh, right now it’s so siloed that, um, I think that’s, that’s why it’s a little bit of this, uh, black box.

[00:18:47] You know, no one’s really speaking about it, but whenever I see vacancies, I think that that’s like, why, why do we all pay the biggest, the highest prices? Why do we pay the highest taxes? And then we see that we have to walk an [00:19:00] extra, or we have to pay a premium for our online deliveries. Um, so these are all things that I think that, you know, I like to. Sort of wake up in conversation because it allows for us as consumers to ask the right questions and see that it’s all impacting us on the day to day, our pricing inflation for, you know, what we get to in terms of convenience. It’s, it’s the cost of living. So if we can’t get it downstairs, like literally downstairs, what are we all doing?

[00:19:29] Um, and so really the demand comes from understanding and really breaking open why real estate is such a black box. Um, but back to your, your question on popups, I, I actually quite find, and it it’s also dependent on, uh, on demographic, on,

[00:19:46] CJ: Yeah. Joy, can we, can we even back up? I realized when I asked the question, I’m like, I, I actually don’t know the definition of a popup. Like what’s the difference between a popup, how, like, you know, is there a ti is it defined by timeframe or [00:20:00] what? Like what is a popup?

[00:20:01] Joy Fan: Yes, I think, I think, I think there’s a podcast that I did like 10 years ago that said, defined it as anything that is under a year.

[00:20:09] CJ: Okay.

[00:20:09] Joy Fan: you know, um, and now maybe it’s defined as a license agreement. Um, uh, now day popups are considered activations, so there, there’s new terms for everything, but I would say popup is anything under a year. Um, and you can do it from a day to a year. Anything over that you’re signing likely a longer term lease. And that’s just something that, uh, landlords end up trying to get you to do. So, yeah, I mean, I’ve seen people extend popups and definitely, and do it continuously over and over again. So, um, you can, you can absolutely do that too.

[00:20:44] CJ: Got it.

[00:20:45] Zoë : You talked about these sort of like eras that you’ve been through, it was almost like pre COVID, COVID and then this like post COVID era, which we’re in right now. So the thing I’m just really interested to hear from you is that during co.

[00:20:58] CJ: No, no problem.[00:21:00]
[00:21:07] Joy Fan: Sorry, you guys, I have to move. Is this gonna totally ruin everything? I have to move, but I can hold my, my, um, I can hold my One second.

[00:21:16] CJ: Yeah, just don’t shut. Just don’t shut your laptop. Joy, if you can.

[00:21:27] I don’t know what, what are you gonna ask? No, don’t say it.

[00:21:49] Zoë : just clip this section out.

[00:21:52] CJ: Oh yeah. It’s like it’ll take two seconds to clip out.[00:22:00]
[00:22:18] Basically the same background.

[00:22:20] Zoë : you just do a lap around the office and come back to the same spot?

[00:22:23] Joy Fan: Totally.

[00:22:26] CJ: Yeah.

[00:22:30] Joy Fan: For, um, uh, New York Tech Week. So yeah,

[00:22:33] CJ: The guy, the guys at uh, the guys at Peak Design call ’em fart pods.

[00:22:40] Joy Fan: Oh boy. Then I, I’m definitely not entering any one of those. That’s so funny. If you see that, uh, the next time you visit the office and there’s candles there, that, that will be me. That’s just kind of like

[00:22:53] CJ: Yeah.

[00:22:54] Joy Fan: puttings around.

[00:22:56] CJ: Or like, yeah, the ize

[00:22:58] Joy Fan: Oh yeah, totally. [00:23:00] Just carrying that around. Um, but sorry to break the momentum. You guys hope that didn’t mess everything up.

[00:23:04] CJ: not at all.

[00:23:05] Joy Fan: yes.

[00:23:06] Zoë : I think I was just asking a question around like COVID, like obviously that threw a huge span in the works for retail physical spaces, brick and mortar stores. Like that was a period where a lot of brands were just shutting down because they just could not maintain revenue during that time. And I feel like there’s this huge societal shift in the perspectives of like, do we actually need physical spaces? And I think a lot of brands, if they’re deciding to make that move from like online into physical, how a lot of these questions of like, can it be done online? And I feel like I would love just to hear your thoughts around that.

[00:23:39] Joy Fan: Yes, yes. Well, I, I will say that naturally I’m gonna be biased that, um, eventually everything, everything I. That you hit sort of a plateau, um, so to speak, or it’s almost like being behind the walls. And I, and I, and I [00:24:00] believe, you know, if you have a physical product, it’s just so entirely important to have physical space, um, be met. Um, you know, I I, I love the dating analogy because it’s like being able to just date online, and you can do that continuously and continuously, but when you, for the first time go on a date physically, it’s like, whoa, it just. know, the demeanor, you kind of, you, you shift entirely. And I think that there’s a lot to say about the vulnerability that happens, but it also breaks open the opportunity that is, it’s limitless.

[00:24:35] Um, the idea that a brand, a human can fall in love with your product and really love it, and there’s no cap to it. You know, what they can purchase and how much and, and how their minds can be changed. And I think that’s the beauty of marketing in general. Um, I think that I always love when marketing added with physical space or physical touchpoints, it’s, you can change someone’s mind entirely.

[00:24:57] And that’s my, like, the most exciting thing [00:25:00] for me and why retail matters. And so I think the biggest, you know, the, the biggest thing is that. always asks like, but when or is it going to be successful? I think you can even count all the brands who did it very, very well strategically, and I will speak to some that you guys probably see all over now. Uh, Ferrari being one of them, farty being another who just like, they, when all was quiet and everything shut down their, their team were, they just, they knew it. They knew that being able to again, sign these leases and really pick them up all while everyone was quiet. It was, I think, um, farty opened like 30 stores in a year and that kind of momentum grew them into, know, this massive well-known brand that they are, um, how to maintain that.

[00:25:49] That’s another, you know, segment that I’m sure we’re gonna speak to. Um, but I think the exciting thing is that, you know, that your brand is sort of spilling over the conversations via, [00:26:00] you know, your socials and people just wanting to meet. And I think more than ever. People want that. It’s like the brand, having their house be completely opened, um, for people to come in.

[00:26:11] And I, I always call it like the hang, you know, if you are a brand who knows that you really, really like the intimacy of getting to hear feedback or understanding and, and you’re curious about what that feedback leads to, then definitely do physical retail. Because physical retail is that it’s essentially opening up all the windows and all the doors and saying, great, come on in, and we’re open to the feedback and we wanna grow with you.

[00:26:35] And when you are very centered at who your customer is, is, it’s, it’s like surfing that wave and surfing the wave of retail is the most excellent state to be in. Um, but yes, I am happy to answer the one question that

[00:26:50] CJ: Yes, you’re, yes. Like how? Because we work with a lot of brands that are digital only still scaling up and it’s like, I think every brand that we [00:27:00] work with would agree. Like if I had a magic wand, I would love to open my own shop for all the reasons you listed, to get hands on products, to, to get the feedback from customers, to identify where our blind spots are in our messaging, it was like, oh, we think this is a big deal, but actually nobody cares about this when they walk into the store.

[00:27:16] All those things. When, when, what is your, like, do you have a framework criteria?

[00:27:23] Joy Fan: it down for, for us. Yes. So the, the thing is, you know, I, I, I believe that in the moment you start a brand, if, let’s say, say we can break it down to revenue, um, I think that makes the most sense for people to, to hear it and, and hear it for themselves and say, okay, what, um, what bracket am I, maybe, uh, if that’s, maybe that’s a great way to say it.

[00:27:46] So let’s say you’re making about a thousand dollars a month. So you’re about like 12 K in, um, in annual revenue. At that point you should, and I’m not saying that open up a physical retail space on your [00:28:00] own. I’m saying great. At any point in which you are doing a thousand dollars in sales, are at a good point to say, Ooh, maybe I wanna do a booth outta market, or I wanna do some sort of collective popup, or I wanna, and that’s saying, great.

[00:28:16] And I, and I’m gonna say that only spend 10%, don’t spend more, spend up to 10% of those dollars. And you’re probably spending in total maybe 20 to 30% on marketing. You should be, I hopefully, um, and you guys can break that down, but I would say 10% of it, it in physical because you will, it will change the trajectory of what your, of your creation, of your product.

[00:28:42] Everything. But you, like, I would say it’s more, it’s not. If, if I had a wand, I would say everyone should do it. But if, if you were to say, but if, you know, if you, uh, you gave me a wand, I would say everyone should do therapy as well. So it comes to this, uh, retail, [00:29:00] retail for brand founders, you have to want to learn, um, the curiosity matched with the actual, um, percentage that you can actually spend on testing this.

[00:29:12] You get 10% tested, you are gonna grow 300%. And I guarantee you that because the more you learn, the more you have an ear on what you’re actually creating, what people are picking up on, the more it sort of pauses you and then you, you create that next product and it’s probably gonna be more fine tuned. So it’s kind of like stopping and then learning and then being like, great, let’s, let me, let me pull back and let me iterate on whether it’s like new colors, you, you name it. Um, I would say then the next bracket would be,

[00:29:43] CJ: Even just to pause there. I, and, and just to build on it too, from my own experience as like a startup founder in a past life, I mean, we would go to, you know, trade shows, uh, things like that. And I think it should be required of marketing teams. People on marketing [00:30:00] teams go, man, a booth at a trade show and talk to him.

[00:30:03] ’cause we had so many messages that nobody cared about. So I was in the Better For You pain relief space. We had a all, we had a pain relief cream made from natural ingredients. And we thought we were like, and the ingredients were important and what it’s made out of. And the nont toxin, all that. But it was, if that was here, that message was here.

[00:30:23] The does it work, was off the charts. Nobody,

[00:30:27] Joy Fan: yes,

[00:30:27] CJ: if it worked, nobody cared what was in it. And it was just like, oh, we need to maybe change our messaging hierarchy a little bit. And, and it was just like, like clear as day slapped in the face. And I think marketers tend to, you know, work in their silos and drink their own Kool-Aid and, uh, you know, go be a salesperson for a day, you know.

[00:30:49] Joy Fan: Yes, I, and it’s, it’s all, it’s all, you know, I, I think that’s why it’s like having the ear to what your product means to you. You know, I think when you are, [00:31:00] when it’s a very vulnerable space to be in, to actually be there and get feedback, you know, and I think that that’s an important state to be, be able to say, great, am I building a product for just me or am I building it for something, someone a concern or, you know, something better.

[00:31:16] And I think when you get to that state where you’re like, actually, I am solving something, your feedback loop is actually your currency. And I think that the more you do that, the more you just blow up

[00:31:29] CJ: Yeah.

[00:31:29] Joy Fan: there isn’t room for error at that point. You know, your margins get better, you start to see things in a bigger, brighter way.

[00:31:37] And you don’t get this like. Everything starts to become more fluid from the team culture all the way to the consumer’s expectations because it becomes one wide open, like transparent lens as opposed to sort of and closing and being like, great, we have this one silo, then we’re building this one for this silo, and then we’re building this one for another. But yeah, it’s, it’s just [00:32:00] something that I think I would love that I think we should, we should, we should ask of that,

[00:32:05] CJ: Yeah.

[00:32:05] Joy Fan: for people to join in that and or even do popups and be able to sit there for a day. But I think that it’s, it’s just, it’s an exciting moment to be able to see how people interact with your product.

[00:32:17] CJ: So I’m kind of thinking, okay, so phase one, the investment in, and what you kind of, I think you kind of rattled off it’s, it’s not like retail, but more just like in person, like do something in person, uh, physical. And it’s really an investment in education, sharpening your acts and, and understanding your customer, your messaging and all that.

[00:32:36] So it’s an investment in like building a better business. And then you were about, and I cut you off, and then you go to phase, what’s phase two?

[00:32:43] Joy Fan: Yeah. Phase phase two, I would say the next, the next bracket, which you’re, now you’re a hundred thousand dollars, uh, annual brand, right? You, you’re like, great, I am now I’m doing 10 K more a month. Um, at that point, you, I would still maintain it [00:33:00] to about 10, maybe, maybe you can get to 15% of your annual revenue and dedicate that to physical something. And I would say now you can enter in the state of maybe do a trade show. Now you’re, you are divvying up those dollars and now you can say, great, I’m gonna spend $10,000 on a mix between, I would do a trade show and a couple of different markets. Um, and then you have the next bracket where now you’re at that $1 million mark.

[00:33:26] Once you’re in the $1 million mark, you can start to spend 20% of. Your annual revenue on retail, physical retail to some extent. And I would say that this is at the point where when you’re once at 1 million, hopefully you have a great, either you are great, you yourself is a great marketing team, but being able to dial into what are you measuring, that’s the biggest thing that I always say is like, you can go and dial up all these different channels, but if it isn’t, um, synchronized on what you’re measuring, it’s, it’s, none of it matters.[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] CJ: Yeah, so on, on that too. Like I, I’m, and I’m, I’m still not even, I’m not sold like the 15 to 20%. Like, what are you, where are you getting that number? Yeah.

[00:34:09] Joy Fan: So I look at it as, as, like, I look at it as like no matter what, along the way, you’re gonna, if you get to, if you’re at like 5 million and you do a massive. store, um, and maybe even bigger, maybe you’re at, um, at some point I think people at 10 million a should do.

[00:34:30] Like, and we’ll talk about what that budget should be. But the reason why I say test it is that eventually you’re gonna do it anyway. And those stop gaps of what happens when you open up your store would be learned along the way at a smaller amount. And the reason why is that, that physical interaction is you saying, great, am I learning from this person?

[00:34:53] And you can, when, when you start to answer the question, ask the questions, and answer it yourself, you start to actually [00:35:00] create your entire brand guideline, all the stuff. I think that it’s answered along the way as opposed to actually having. From Google reviews to Yelp to everyone, your reviews answering it for you, if that makes sense. So once you do physical retail, you’re actually just saying, great, I’m vulnerable. I’m asking. We wanna learn vulnerable, asking ’em, wanna learn. And once you do those things, when you open your physical store, you already know exactly what your big branded moment is. You know how to get people from the front of the store to the back of the store, and which is really highly important.

[00:35:37] I think the biggest thing is when you open up a space. Getting just the foot traffic. It’s not about just dropping your store or your products into the highest foot traffic area. It’s being able to build momentum enough where people not only know their brand, but everyone who doesn’t know it wants to know it.

[00:35:56] And that that feeling, you know, [00:36:00] when brands enter in that, into that state and those ones have tested, I would say Warby Parker is a great one who went from great, they were DTC only. They very much created this feedback loop because that was what the brand was built on, was great. Try X amount of. Classes, I think it was five to start. Um, and then they did the bus. And that bus tour that they did in, I think it was 2012, was so important to different colleges. They baked their price point based on learning about what the people were saying. And I think that that’s a key thing too, is learning about your price point, learning what people are picking up, how many colorways, and then you have your physical space.

[00:36:39] And once you have that, they already knew that the pricing was gonna range. And then being able to say, great, what other services would allow for it to be now formed where people are coming in for multiple reasons. And then you have people buying, you know, upwards of 10 to a dozen glasses for no apparent reason.

[00:36:57] I mean, I specifically have that as [00:37:00] well. Um, multiple glasses for no specific reason. Um, but I think, yeah, there, I, I, I feel like there are so many brands that I could speak to who did it super well, and it was because they weren’t afraid to actually test and learn from the start.

[00:37:15] CJ: So let’s stay, let’s stay in this bracket thing ’cause this is pretty cool. So I’m, and I’m gonna try to keep echoing it back so maybe you can help me, but just so that we have it and, ’cause we know nothing so we’ll, we’ll say the stupid stuff. You correct us Joy. The, so like in that 10 million, let’s say you’re in that $10 million revenue per year bracket and I still kind of am hearing like it’s still about learning and committing to the channel.

[00:37:42] Um, because, and I love this because if you have the vision that you’re going to be a big brand someday, and hopefully you do. ’cause why are you doing it otherwise? Um, I mean, I guess I take that back. Some people love to build a lifestyle brand good for them. The, um, you wanna learn it when the stakes are [00:38:00] lower and not, and not place, ’cause you’re placing massive bets later and you don’t wanna place massive bets on, you know, faulty information or hunches you wanna know.

[00:38:11] And so I love the bus idea. I’m actually not even familiar with the Warby Parker bus thing, but I love that I, I I could see a lot of brands that are in that $10 million bracket of like, hey, buy a used truck, wrap it and go, you know, if, let’s say you’re an outdoor brand, go park it at the base of a mountain.

[00:38:28] Uh, in a mountain town and go collect feedback. And the other thing that I’m thinking tactically why this is really fun is you could really play with your offer strategy. In a very isolated moment versus like offer strategy is actually you. You think online, you think digital. Oh, it’s so easy. You can spin up things no matter.

[00:38:48] Actually, it’s way easier if you’re selling outta the back of a truck to just be like, ah, today we’re gonna run a two for one and see how that does. Tomorrow we’re gonna run three for five. Like, and you can just change it or you can change it [00:39:00] hour by hour. You can’t do that digitally

[00:39:02] Joy Fan: Yes. And that is what I’m saying is like some of my fa what I love is going to the markets, um, you know, like the renegades, um, or where you’re just, you’re seeing it all happen. And that’s actually the feed of information. The people who are doing it great have some sort of sampling. And it doesn’t matter if your product is not food, you are giving something to them and you have a tiny little booth space.

[00:39:28] And I would say that when you see brands do it well, they’re optimizing the environment and the experience for the consumer, even though it’s the tiniest space. And that’s why I don’t, I, when I equate it to when you do it. Everyone always looks at it as cost. Like it’s so expensive. Well, you can actually amplify your experience at the lowest cost, and I can share with people how to do it again for a hundred dollars or a thousand dollars.

[00:39:54] But of course when you’re at a 10 million, you know, you, you’ve got, then again, if you follow the rule of it being now, you’re probably at [00:40:00] the 10 to 20%. So let’s just say at the bare minimum, you’re spending a million dollars on physical retail. What can that get you? Oh my goodness. You can do a full on probably one year, um, short term popup. You can do a couple different activations. Um. And, you know, and I’m in, I’m excluding sort of the out-of-home advertising, digital and all of the other things that you would feed into this, but just for physical retail sake, you can definitely do, and I, I would do, I wouldn’t sh i, in your first year, I wouldn’t actually sign the, the lease.

[00:40:32] I would do it where I would do between five to 10 different activations and do multi-city and really learn your demographic, do to templatize it and then get to that again 10 person state. And that’s when you actually learned. Exactly how to do your physical retail. That’s from learning what kind of person you want to represent you.

[00:40:53] You wanna learn again, what kind of, um, you know, what, what are you doing in terms of sales tactics to get people [00:41:00] to purchase X amount. I mean, that’s, it’s just, you know, it’s endless what you can learn. And to your point, CJ, it’s exciting when people see that, oh wait, you can actually change up your messaging on the dial just by speaking to somebody and it doesn’t have to be baked in in your marketing message. And then that’s when it becomes, it’s the speed of light of where you can go with all of that messaging.

[00:41:23] CJ: So our agency has, uh, a client, um, the brand’s called Haven Tents. Uh, Derek, the founder, was already on the podcast and he tells the story, but, um, he’s, you know, founder led brand. Um, they’re, they are killing it. They have this really incredible product where it’s just this, it’s a lay flat hammock and it looks like magic when you, when you see it, it just doesn’t, it doesn’t make sense to your brain.

[00:41:48] But he’s, um, a big proponent of trade shows, outdoor, like the outdoor trade shows. And here would be my add-on to this. When you do these in-person, uh, [00:42:00] activations, get somebody to turn on a camera and record your damn pitch. So, Dick Derek does this. All the time. It, he just always has somebody floating around him.

[00:42:13] ’cause he said the pitch about a billion times, they just record it and they post these to the internet. And because, you know, he’s got a little bit of an unfair advantage. His project pro, uh, product looks like magic. But these go viral. One of these videos alone did, uh, did 40 million views. He regularly on, almost on a weekly basis, is posting videos like this.

[00:42:35] Million views. Million views. Million views, no problem. And it’s nothing special. It’s just him pitching the product. Um, and it casts this disproportionate shadow where it’s like, who, what is this cool brand or whatever. And it’s, you know, it, it’s, so my advice to anybody investing in any in-person thing,

[00:42:56] Joy Fan: Yes,

[00:42:56] CJ: on a camera, capture the content and feed it back [00:43:00] into digital.

[00:43:01] Joy Fan: yes.

[00:43:04] Zoë : Joy. You talk about these stages of growth and building momentum from these trade shows up until having a very sustainable, physical presence. But every brand is trying to do this. Every brand’s trying to go and do shows, make their mark and then get a physical sustainable store. It’s like what sets some brands apart when it’s such a competitive market?

[00:43:23] Like what are some of the common like pitfalls that you just see brands do time and time again?

[00:43:29] Joy Fan: yes. Oof. Ah, well, you know, if you are not someone, if you, if, if you consider yourself, um. I hate typecasting. ’cause I do think that people, you know, may be, uh, an introvert and it may be a a a, it’s, it’s a great thing for specific product. But I would say when it comes to trade show or doing popup learning or the key, the, the key thing in that environment is to bring in somebody who is [00:44:00] fully open.

[00:44:01] Um, and the reason why is it’s, it’s, it is a vulnerable state, but you. have to be the one to do it. I think the, the often this whole idea of like, we have to, we as the founders have to do every single piece and part. I know for myself, CJ mentioned the, you know, turn on a camera. I get strangely camera shy, when it’s somebody doing it and I’m just doing my thing and I could, I could care less that there is a camera, but I’m so hyper-focused. That’s when it shines. Because like you said to the founder who, you know, said it over and over again, that’s what we do. We right, we, we share expertise not in the light, but when it’s dark, when it’s just like, great, somebody’s gotta clean the floor and open for business. These are the moments where I think that actually why these things go viral is because it’s the most vulnerable and intimate moment.

[00:44:49] You’ve got the founder cleaning a floor before doors open. This is often what ends up happening. And so it’s the intimacy of that.

[00:44:57] CJ: I would say record that too. Record that moment, [00:45:00] post it on some. Social, the founder cleaning the floor. Are you kidding? That would kill.

[00:45:03] Joy Fan: I am like, yes, yes. And then, and that’s often what happens because they care the most. They care about the details, they care about the smell, the all the things.

[00:45:11] But I would say when it comes to a trade show, it’s, it’s time suck. For sure. It is. But you get the friend or the younger friend, or someone who again, online sees social media is amazing. You get the person and you’re like, great, they’ve been feeding you. We love you brand. We love your brand. I love it, I love it, I love it.

[00:45:28] I do anything. I wanna do your socials and be like, well, you wanna come to a pop-up booth and be my main person who now records everything? That’s your person. And so I would say that, um, oftentimes as a founder, you get into the space where you feel like you have to do everything. I’ve been there. I know that multiple front, uh, brands have done that too. And you know, I, I, I say always look around and be like, who’s the best suited, who’s the best fit for this particular piece? And when you start to piece those who are best suited to do it. [00:46:00] Oh, it’s a night and day difference because they wanna gather the information, they’ll feed it back to you, and now you can create it as more these data points when you’re doing it and you have your back facing the human and you’re kind of on the computer and people are coming up and you’re, you know, your palms are sweaty and you don’t wanna speak to people. That’s it. It’s not as charming. And I would say that the biggest flop in what ends up happening. that don’t see or brand, uh, when you go into the environment, you don’t see, again, the vulnerability starts to happen even when it’s wholesale. When you are again, back facing any, any such way, you’re eating a big sandwich ’cause you’re at a trade show, these things, you know, they’re, they’re, uh, part of your brand aesthetic.

[00:46:43] And it’s not saying that it doesn’t, it’s not also vulnerable as in like, do your thing, eat the sandwich. But it’s also, you know, it’s important to be able to show up with like this, this energy. Like I care about people coming to see the product and the brand. And I do think, um, the [00:47:00] best way to really show up and actually do it well is, is like that you have the team to do it.

[00:47:06] That does it.

[00:47:06] CJ: It is so funny. This reminds me of a story.

[00:47:10] Joy Fan: changes the dynamic for

[00:47:11] CJ: It, it reminds me of this story, joy. My, my mentor, um, this guy Russell Kern, he was also on the, uh, guest on the podcast. Uh, he’s got 50 years of agency experience. He took me under his wing many years ago. Um, you know, he was agency founder and CEO. So he had, he had no problem telling people what the, the constructive criticism that they needed to hear.

[00:47:34] Um, and I used to be the, one of the new business people. And so I was, you know, on the, on the road tour, on all these conferences that we had to go to. And, uh, I remember at one of ’em, I had a drink in my hand at the booth. Uh, you know, ’cause it was like cocktail hour and Russell came over, he goes, he goes, we don’t drink at the booth.

[00:47:54] Don’t get put that away. You’re, you’re, we’re, he’s like, you’re the face of the agency. You’re the brand. [00:48:00] Like, I, I know you wanna have a good time. I think it’s more casual these days. This was, you know, 15 years ago or whatever. But, but he is like, you’re working and we’re, you know, we’re trying to present, uh, uh, you know, a look and feel and a professionalism.

[00:48:14] And then that later on evolved into one of our core values at the, at the agency now is we, we say everything communicates and it’s stolen right from the hospitality industry. And it’s, what do the dirty windows in the hotel lobby say about the cleanliness of the rooms? You know, what does the, what is the clip of the founder scrubbing the little dirt out of the corner of the, of the store, say about the attention to detail of the products.

[00:48:44] And it’s like, it says everything. Um, yeah.

[00:48:48] Joy Fan: And that, that’s why, you know, when it comes to re retail, the, the best, the best thing is learn from hospitality and learn these details, because it does add up. I mean, we say, we, you know, just, just, it’s a [00:49:00] common thing, not only in our household, but for retail, is that we, we say, no, your impact and your impact, it’s like, great, you can have your, you know, your body and sort of the, your language be as such, but the impact will be. Quite big and not knowing it. It will, it, it says volumes on the way that we’re speaking with, again, our, our, you know, our physical, um. And I, I think that that’s the most important thing when it comes to physical retails because people, they’re reading it, you know, they’re reading the, and, oh, I cannot wait for us to do this ever on a walk because I can share and point out all the time in terms of what brands are doing well and which ones aren’t just purely based on, again, they’re, they’re their staff.

[00:49:45] And when you walk in and you see, again, if it’s happy, very friendly, very charismatic, very easygoing, sort of freedom, um, uh, sort of free and excited individuals, you better bet that at the top there’s [00:50:00] someone saying, Hey, we really believe in culture. Maybe the diversity thing is still very much part of their brand moment. And you see it then seeped all the way down again to the physical retail team because that’s where it bleeds. That’s where, again, it’s so vulnerable that it can be the height of the heartbeat. It can be, again, everything that drives the momentum forward. But it could be also. The fall, and that’s where everyone sees it most.

[00:50:26] So, you know, that it’s, it’s, it’s always fun when people ask like, oh, how, how, what do you think? How, how do you think x, y, Z brand is doing? And I’m like, great, let’s go on a walk. And you will see for yourself which ones are doing well. And the next ones that are, uh, perhaps, you know, filings chapter 11, which is always sad for

[00:50:44] CJ: Yeah. You know what’s crazy? It’s like, it’s, it’s kind of like you can do a lot of things right? And I want to go and put a, put a, like a period on this simple thing, maybe simpler said than done. It’s like getting the right people [00:51:00] interfacing with the people walking up to the counter or into the store. I think Joy, we might have talked about this last time we met, of just like if you go into a bar or a restaurant and your whole experience hinges on the, you know, charisma of your server or your bartender, and it’s like.

[00:51:17] You could do a lot. I, in my opinion, and I know nothing about retail, but you could do a lot of things wrong in your story or retail experience. But if you have a charismatic, passionate, enthusiastic individual behind the counter, you, you can close sales and you’ll learn a lot and, and people will fall in love with your brand.

[00:51:37] Joy Fan: Yes. And

[00:51:38] CJ: And it,

[00:51:38] Joy Fan: it’s, it’s like you can have an incredible product, it may not move if someone who’s at, you know, who’s kind of just like had a big night and they’re just like, oh, you know, bored.

[00:51:50] CJ: yeah. I mean, let’s, let’s, let’s give, um, let’s give some credit to, I, I’ll give an example. We have a, we have a local, I won’t drop their name. We have a local coffee shop right around the corner from us. It’s so [00:52:00] convenient. Uh, they have and they have great food, good coffee, all that. We go, we still go there all the time, just out of convenience.

[00:52:07] But man, could those employees not want to be there anymore? I don’t know. Like it is such a Dr. They, it’s like an energy, like vampire like center, and then you go to Starbucks and it’s like you for the most part, not always right, but for the most part that culture comes from the top down and they’re doing something in their training where you have, they, they’re meeting a certain level expectation of friendliness and just even saying hello when you walk in the door

[00:52:37] Joy Fan: yes,

[00:52:38] CJ: is incredible.

[00:52:39] And it’s like, yeah, Starbucks beats this local place. Like

[00:52:43] Joy Fan: yes,

[00:52:44] CJ: say it.

[00:52:45] Joy Fan: it’s training. And I, and I would say, you know, perhaps even the stability of that happens, um, I think that, you know, we’re, we’re seeing, we’re seeing it all around us right now, what is happening with the instability of, of people’s, [00:53:00] um, you know, work, their ability to pay the bills. And I think that what ends up happening is that. Retail, physical retail, you know, it, it became, it used to be something that people were like, great, I’m gonna go into the hospital hospitality space, or retail now, know, people’s main jobs are something digital. Um, and they sort of have these side like, uh, I guess I have to be a barista, or I have to be, and you know, some people do that for Bria, for a living for sure, and do retail for a living as well.

[00:53:33] But I would say that I hope that people find a different synergy and alignment of why, why they do something. Uh, in general, because it is so important to me. Uh, like my, my favorite is when you see somebody again. a mundane, mundane thing, whether it’s like putting stickers on an, um, an orange

[00:53:56] CJ: Preach.

[00:53:56] Joy Fan: but they could be the happiest person and they’re [00:54:00] saying, good morning, good evening.

[00:54:02] And that to me is like, suddenly, I don’t know why, but I just pick up, you know, like 12 oranges and I walk away without, there is no exchange. They don’t even like say anything more than just a good morning. But it’s a feeling and I think that people have to remember when you’re in that position, you’re selling a feeling

[00:54:21] CJ: Yeah.

[00:54:22] Joy Fan: far extends when you have also the physical product also be something that somebody wants.

[00:54:27] CJ: It sounds woo woo. It’s definitely not. I mean, there’s, there’s old school sales advice where if you’re doing, you know, cold calling, they tell you to smile when you’re talking because people can hear your smile. Um,

[00:54:39] Joy Fan: Oh yeah. And

[00:54:40] CJ: I.

[00:54:40] Joy Fan: up. Yes.

[00:54:41] CJ: And stand up, which I need to start doing when recording this podcast. But the,

[00:54:45] Joy Fan: Um, me, me too, me too. no. My, uh, my, I have an aura ring, um, and it always alerts me. It’s like, you’ve been sitting for a while now.

[00:54:53] CJ: yeah.

[00:54:53] Joy Fan: get you up so

[00:54:55] CJ: So Joy,

[00:54:56] Joy Fan: I

[00:54:56] CJ: joy, can we, can we go back to, and I wanna be respectful of your time, [00:55:00] but the, like, go back to just,

[00:55:02] Joy Fan: minutes over so we can dial in, like, dive into any specifics as well.

[00:55:06] CJ: you are the best. The, um, just going back to like, we work with a lot of clients that are in this like, you know, 20 to $50 million a year range where they are kind of like, at that moment like, all right, uh, you know, you’re starting to the scale and the crazy scale and rapid growth that online is, isn’t as much anymore, or is more difficult, becomes more difficult.

[00:55:29] So you’re starting to look for other channels. They’re starting to, you know, look, how do we expand into retail? Like, I still am like. Help me convince them. I, I’m gonna go back to almost asking the same question, like, help me convince them, like, all right guys, make this big investment. Here’s how you should do it.

[00:55:46] Like, I know it’s such a, it depends.

[00:55:50] Joy Fan: the, the re and I’ll share this based on again, how I, I utilize more of this. Um, it’s a no brainer when you [00:56:00] just carve off a percentage. So look at it as just pure math. The amount that they’re plateauing, let’s just say for a year, whatever that plateau, or let’s even take it quarter by quarter, three months.

[00:56:11] Just take whatever they were about to spend and say, great, let’s use that as a testing ground. So let’s say, and I always say you can pull five, 10% of whatever your marketing budget is. Let’s have that as a test, because you can first create it as a channel test and then it becomes its own channel. But when you do it as more of an activation, it’s easier to swallow that cost because marketing, when you’re saying, great, I just spent $40,000 on a flat out of home, know, we still don’t know the specific measurements.

[00:56:42] We know impressions, but we don’t know specifically whether that that market lift really, really worked. Dial that down. Maybe like, let’s not do, um, the, you know, again, out of home, I think still works to some extent. But if you want to really, really know your [00:57:00] engagement, divvy it up and do some physical retail, because that is, that is gonna always lead.

[00:57:05] Um, it’s still, again, the highest performing conversion channel, um, you know, than any other channel. So like, it’s,

[00:57:13] CJ: And, and do you see.

[00:57:15] Joy Fan: have to

[00:57:16] CJ: Do you see like a positive, is it, is it a positive ROI at that stage, or is it definitely like an investment into like brand building and things like that where you kind of have to get fuzzy with the math? Or is it, or is it, can you be positive ROI? And again, I know it depends on what you sell perhaps, but I.

[00:57:33] Joy Fan: yes. Yeah. There’s a little bit of price point, but I always bake it. Then let’s just say that you’re like, great, now we’ve convinced them to use about 10% of their full marketing dollars. That was gonna be like, now you’re just doing a fraction of what I shared as like starting with 10%. Now you’re like two, 3%.

[00:57:49] Okay. Um, even that, yes, it is just based on it being, if you wanna do a one month, uh, like a popup, let’s say I would do maybe you, [00:58:00] you, if you’re pushing for sales minimum six weeks, that drives again the consumer to come back and actually purchase. Um, there it’s more stylistic. It’s kind of like, you know, again, Zoe, I’m gonna share back the dating thing is like. Everyone thinks that there’s this like, uh, template to doing retail. It’s really just based on your goal. And so just like some people when they’re dating, some wanna, you know, go into the full like, great, I wanna a family and, and do this route someone spend their entire life again, traveling to multiple places with, with this person. That’s gonna be the same thing as your physical retail. If you think about it, if you are, you know, you know that you’re like, I want to be on High Street in a major city, great. You’re gunning for like, great, how do I ensure that my contribu margins are good? You’re spending no more than 18% on your or your whatever you are negotiating.

[00:58:55] Like, these are all key things that I can, again, share back with the listeners on [00:59:00] exactly what you should be looking out for. And then you can market and say, great joy, I need someone to help me negotiate this. I will be on that call with you and that landlord or whomever it is, because I do believe that again. The multiplier creates what break down. What is this myth of great, you can keep raising the rents or keep raising the rents. And so there are, um, abilities to do that, I think. so when you were mentioning what is some of the pitfalls? You know, I think I often see this as paying too high of rent for a long-term lease. Um, but there’s also ways around that too, is that you can actually create what would be four wall profitability by sharing on the space and doing partnerships. And then, you know, calling us up too and saying, great joy. I spent too much on my physical lease. What should I do? It’s not fitting with the contribution, contribution margins that you mentioned. Great. You can do a shop share or do a popup with a really fun non-alcoholic beverage [01:00:00] or like, you know, um, uh, do like a day spa thing with, you know, and bring in, in like a cool if it’s more of a wellness brand. So there’s just multitude of ways to actually get to physical space working for you than against you. It’s the one to do it, two, getting the right team around you and everything starts to fall in place. Um, those metrics will be key of what you’re measuring both on the digital and physical side.

[01:00:28] Zoë : just about

[01:00:28] CJ: Got it.

[01:00:29] Zoë : around you. So say you have a agency at your disposal, what would you do? How would you use them? And just like be able to, like if we were the performance announcing drug in this situation, what would you get us doing?

[01:00:42] Joy Fan: Yes. Yes. Well, I love, you know, that I, it is, it is that beautiful pairing of saying great, the willingness and desire for the digital teams to say, great, what, what are we proposing on the retail side? And so getting the [01:01:00] same ass, I’m sure you guys do it on the digital side of like, what are our goals? So just getting pairing down to what are our goals? Most everyone says, great, we wanna drive sales. But then you go into, you know, what does that mean? If you wanna drive sales? A popup has to be, uh, no less than six weeks because the rhythm of a consumer, they come back, they’ll revisit, even if it’s somebody who is, uh, visiting as a tourist. They kind of go into this loop where they’re like, remember that trip? And they look at their photos and images and they’re like, oh my God, remember that store? And then they go back online. You see again that, that, uh, that lift happen. But that’s really, really a key piece because I think sometimes popups. Exists too short and they expect magic to happen without actually existing in the space. If you’re doing more of a great, we are doing sell through and wanting to push product, then yeah, a weekend popup works, but make sure that it’s, the visibility is there and you’re sort of pairing it with either [01:02:00] great opportunities, some great branded moments, some great, um, branded experiences.

[01:02:04] Something that allows for people to come away with it and be again, saying, whoa, that was awesome, um, or I didn’t know of that brand and now I love it. And that just starts to blow up. Um,

[01:02:16] CJ: Can you give an example of like a branded moment, branded experience for clarity?

[01:02:20] Joy Fan: yeah. Yeah. I would say, um, I’ve done so many different styles. I would say that the best ones would be, uh, like a branded moment would be. When you do a four day activation and maybe, um, you do a four day activation and you are a, uh, health and wellness brand, but you do it and you pair it at, let’s say another, uh, wellness brand, whether it be like a berries or something like that. And, um, it’s super important for there to [01:03:00] be brand alignment. And that, that, uh, if you are, if you are like, great, I don’t wanna do physical retail, you can do it based on, again, activation partnerships. Those are like the key moments where I, I consider that also physical retail, but smarter. And that’s kind of the, um, the specific era we’re in where it’s like more of this partnership play where you have something existing.

[01:03:23] So, you know, for example, um. ones at Citizen M for example, in New York City where we have tons of brands who always do fun things over at, uh, citizen M. And what you see is that it’s baked into the, the people who are going there, they’re traveling there. And just like the wonderment of a traveler is so much in this, like, I don’t like when we all know it.

[01:03:48] Anyone who has traveled knows this is that you don’t know why, but you pick up things and suddenly your wallet comes out and you’re just purchasing it at the same moment.

[01:03:56] CJ: I’m on vacation.

[01:03:57] Joy Fan: You know who needs another hat, right? Like, how many hats do I [01:04:00] have from places that I visited too, just because it was a fun, cool color

[01:04:04] CJ: It’s the same part of the brain that I pack like two books where I’m like, I’ve never read a book in my life. I’m like, oh, now I’m a reader. Like,

[01:04:12] Joy Fan: yes, yes. Because you’re like, well, in case, because it might get me there.

[01:04:16] CJ: yeah.

[01:04:16] Joy Fan: But I do think what, what, what I like to expand my knowledge on isn’t, is not about physical retail and getting the right demographic and the right space. Yes, a lot of the operating pieces must be there, but it’s about being at the right place at the right time and actually showing up where your audience already is. And so it’s about ensuring that, again, your product kind of fits with that discoverable moment. Because most people, without a doubt, it’s like we aren’t thinking, oh wait, I need a hat today. We’re just, for every hat moment I’ve ever had, it’s been like, it’s just something that I saw. And it was not even a hat shop, it was always a coffee shop.

[01:04:59] It [01:05:00] was always, at, at, um, an airport, something random. And tho those are the moments where I think pairing the right moment, your product should exist and actually be, um, tried on. So for example, you mentioned the brand that you worked with earlier, like cool would it be to actually see it be, you know, the, the, um, be unfolded and like in the moment that you want to actually take it out?

[01:05:27] And those are the moments where I think that it’s like, it’s about alignment. So some of the traditional ways of doing popups or um, long-term leases, yeah, we can get into the win and the why, but I think that being able to align with moments in which your product just is very fitting and people want to. in an adventurous moment, that brain doesn’t turn off and suddenly they’re just picking and choosing all the things that they want. So there is something to be said on why the physical still works.

[01:05:58] CJ: Love it. Joy.[01:06:00]
[01:06:00] Joy Fan: Yes.

[01:06:00] CJ: been a joy. How many people have said that to you? God.

[01:06:03] Joy Fan: you. you. No, I always, I always appreciate it because sometimes you get into moments where like, yeah, you know what, you’re right.

[01:06:11] CJ: It’s been awesome. So,

[01:06:12] Joy Fan: else I can, I, I can answer, I can

[01:06:14] CJ: I mean, there’s,

[01:06:15] Joy Fan: guys joke for hours.

[01:06:17] CJ: there’s a million things.

[01:06:19] Joy Fan: very tactical ’cause it feels, again, like a black box.

[01:06:23] So anytime I can share on percentage breakdowns, on budgeting, on what you should be looking at in terms of leases per zip code, you know, these things are all, it’s just like that’s, that’s information that I think that should be consistently shared with the public. And it’s too, it’s too bad it’s not. As transparent as it should be. Um, so eventually, we’ll we’ll see the next layer of

[01:06:48] CJ: Yeah.

[01:06:48] Joy Fan: in, in, in a few years. We’re gonna be speaking about how, you know, how it was so funny that, uh, real estate was not transparent before and now it is.

[01:06:57] CJ: Yeah, I think my big takeaway just from our [01:07:00] conversation, it’s like this is just the tip of the iceberg, but it’s like, you know, try to bake it into your business plan very early in the trajectory of the business. ’cause if you’re, if you’re planning on being growing to be a big brand, like it’s gonna be a factor at some point and you want to do it when it’s least risky and then have it just baked into your model and then use that as an education engine to influence your messaging and your brand and your targeting and your offer strategy.

[01:07:25] Um, and, you know, get some key fundamental things right? Like, make sure that you’re casting correctly at the, especially at the beginning and having, you know, being very mindful of who is gonna be the face of your brand. I’ll build on one thing, ’cause we see, we see this in the influencer, um, marketing space, right?

[01:07:44] I think one of the biggest, the most common pitfalls we see in digital marketing is brands go out and they just get professional influencers to, you know, be shills for their products. And these pers these people are just like predictable. Like, you know, all right, look at this. Here it is. And it’s like, [01:08:00] they, you could tell they, they know nothing.

[01:08:02] And our advice is always like,

[01:08:03] Joy Fan: would say that’s, yeah, that’s still very much, you know. I consider that like mid-market learnings, where

[01:08:11] CJ: yeah,

[01:08:12] Joy Fan: still the key, the truest is the, you know, it’s like the cs, let’s say you’re kind of mashing up between your top sales person, your top CS person. That’s what it should feel like, feel like in harmony

[01:08:23] CJ: yeah.

[01:08:24] Joy Fan: do physical retail. Um, because that harmony between what people are hearing as what’s wrong versus what you’re selling when you’re syncing that up, and I don’t, it’s, it’s goes the same if you have a physical product, um, if you have a service, you have anything, those two things should always be, um, you know, again, shared at the top.

[01:08:44] Because when that is the key learning, that’s when you, you’re building a, a, a billion dollar business because you know, that’s what people want is constant, again, learning and you’re just, you’re building the evolution of what can be. So again, hopefully listeners [01:09:00] are hearing that. It’s like, great, if I wanna build a brand someday, I’m doing it from. Being able to say, great. Do I want to be vulnerable

[01:09:08] CJ: Yeah.

[01:09:09] Joy Fan: actually care what people want?

[01:09:11] CJ: Yeah.

[01:09:11] Joy Fan: that, um, that’s why physical retail will work when it comes to asking the

[01:09:17] CJ: Yeah, I think just to tie a bow on it, it’s like a lot of stuff in business, right? You just have to do it. Just execute, you know, and, and execute. Try to mitigate risk as much as you can and you know, if that means buying or you know, heck go buy a, go buy a cart and like just get there in front of people and just start there.

[01:09:38] But just start and do something.

[01:09:40] Joy Fan: yes,

[01:09:41] CJ: Um, would be my takeaway. And then my other takeaway is like, yeah, it does sound like it can get pretty complicated or there’s a lot of common mistakes made. So I would just say, call joy. Call you like, or go to retail or.

[01:09:54] Joy Fan: It’s, it’s actually, yes. It’s, so, it’s, yeah. And I will always receive and, and, and, [01:10:00] um, and share at least the, the, the tips. Um, but I would say starts to become really fun. I would love for any, any founders who are curious enough to be able to say, great. Like, join me in on just once you, once you do it and you open your eyes to the potential of a channel being the one that again allows you to, to just float on top of the world, um, It doesn’t have to be, it doesn’t have to be your world to be able to do it successfully. Um, and I think that that’s the common mistake is that people feel like they have to know retail. We all are, we are all part of retail. It’s taking the key learnings based on your own living experience. Great. Do you want. Things to be more accessible then, then do the things that are, you know, more pop up friendly or access friendly or more based on distribution or wholesale. Like I think taking your own learnings of things that you want for yourself is always a great way to [01:11:00] actually put your strategy and plan together.

[01:11:02] So, um, shortcut way of saying, great. Either call us or when you come up with a plan, it doesn’t work out. Call us.

[01:11:11] CJ: Yeah. Love it. Let’s end there. Let’s roll the credits.